[WIP] The Real Roadtrain
Posted 12 December 2005 - 03:30 PM
Ok, well I couldn't find any of the old topics on this, I think even I had posted one ages ago, but found nothing after using the search engine and checking the pages by hand. More or less I've found a semi-simple way of making a road train, or in the trucker industry "Doubles", aka pulling multiple trailers behind a semi.
Simple technique after much experimenting, I'll be doing more after I get some sleep. Basically I replaced "bagboxa" with an actual semi trailer. The hitch system is made up of two dummies, [misc_a] and [hookup]. As the bag cars work, each car as a hookup dummy on the front, and a misc_a dummy on the rear, so I just added a misc_a dummy to the rear of the Semi Trailer. At the moment I can't get two semi trailers to hook up directly, they are connected with "bagboxb" the other cart, which has not been edited. And personally this is the way its suppose to be, you have the truck, connected via the 5th wheel to the first trailer, then you have a cart that is just a set of dual tires and another 5th wheel, which hooks up to the rear of the first trailer via a pindle hook hitch, then the second trailer connects to the 5th wheel on the cart. From there you can just keep building it.
Seems to work fine with little editing, proper weight and handling on the semi-trailer that is replacing the bagboxa slot, I've driven around with 3 trailers behind me and it rides pretty much as it should be, no major glitching with vehicles bouncing or anything like the trailers love to do. Its even hard to break quickly with three on the back, and 3 trailers is about the max, if I have four, seems the 4th one likes to vanish. Also note that the tires on the trailer are spread appart, this is just cause there is no lander gear under the trailers to hold it up, not sure it it'll be usable since I believe its called "misc_a" on the dff, which of course has to be the dummy to hook up the next trailer.
I'll also note, something I should try with a clean copy of SA is that I could hook up an untouched semi-trailer to bagboxb behind the trailer, still connecting the trailers making a double. Makes me think you can do this anyway with regular bagging cars, at least CarB. The Trailers actually use the truck to stay upright, as when I hooked up the untouch trailer, the front of it really dogged and hung down from the cart.
Looks something like this, and usually come with one axle or two, concidering the bagbox cars are all double axled, one would be built with two. I'm just starting to get the hang of Zmod2, so if anyone feels "inspired" to create this converter dolly, it would be appreciated. Otherwise I'll do it at some point. (note: the trailers in the picture look crappy cause I just roughly edited them, missing textures).
That's all for now.
Posted 15 December 2005 - 10:25 PM Edited by Cerbera, 15 December 2005 - 10:28 PM.
I've posted about using baggage trailors for road trains several times. The day before you made this topic, I made a post about trailor types. I remember a topic about road trains before, and remember posting about maybe using the baggage trailors to create enourmous trains of trailors. Great to see you've started making this idea into a reality.
I would recommend having one trailor as a regular semi trailor with a hitch on the back. The other trailor would always have the dolly section attached, like the big trailors some removals vans have here in Europe. People could use a vehicle spawner to create the trailor sections they wanted.
How does the current system perform in terms of handling? I expect using the current semi trailor handling would be the way to go, although there may be some important balance and bias settings which the baggage trailors use to make their steering operate sensibly.
(EDIT) How do you create the fixing points? Are there different types defined by their name in the heirarchy, or are the different types hardcoded? For example, most vehicles can only pull a small number of the various trailor types.
Posted 16 December 2005 - 01:51 AM
Posted 16 December 2005 - 09:45 AM
Yeah, I got to admit that the thread about Trailers & Hitches is probably what got me to look into it, I know at some point before San An even came out for the PC I had posted a thread about this, and probably your suggestion (or others) about using the baggage cars. I didn't post in the Trailer/Hitch thread since it seemed those guys were more looking to make realistic hitches and new trailers for pickup trucks.
FIXING POINTS: I've taken a general look at most of the vehicle & trailer combos, basically looks like the vehicle has the [misc_a] dummy and the trailer has the [hookup] dummy. Seems to be the same all around. Now from the few tests that I have done, I'm assuming its the vehicle that determines what trailer can be hooked up to it, and I'm sure hardcoded that way. As this picture below shows, while pulling the two bagbox trailers behind a linerun, I can hook onto this trailer which is just the regular semi trailer in the game (artict3). I've changed nothing model wise to this trailer (minus its a replacement mod) and even attempted to hook it to the bagbox trailer while being pulled with the baggage car. Doesn't hook up. Also doesn't seem like the dummies need to be aligned perfectly, its mainly when they are verticle to each other.
Handling seems to work fine at the current numbers I'm using, I've never driven doubles or triples, just single 48 foot trailers but they seem to handle as I would imagine they would in real life. Both bagboxes handling were replaced with the artict3 handling, I lowered bagboxb general weight to just 1000 (bagboxa @ 3800). I've travelled around San An with these on the roadtrain, going up to 130+ mph without any problems. The handling doesn't seem to affect the balance and bias, or even the steering of the trailer, I'm not sure if I kept the flags and just replaced the other part of the handling, either way I wouldn't adjust them.
I tried just having two full size trailers hook up, was my first attempt and didn't work out, couldn't get them to connect. I'm not sure cause I was trying to connect bagboxa with bagboxa, or possibly even had the dummy setup incorrectly, I'll make another attempt because I think it would be better for the game. You can't get too long with the trailers, about 4 full size trailers usually means the 4th trailer will disappear, but we're also talking about 8 trailer objects in total. I'll experiment with getting two trailers hooked up without the converter dolly inbetween, in the US I can't say that I've ever seen a trailer with the dolly built into the trailer, its always the cart and I know its a major pain in the rear to get the 2nd trailer hooked up...heh, same with in the game. A vehicle spawner would be highly recommended, I have Spaceeinstein's All In One installed so it makes it simple, even got it down to where I can drop them in a line.
And that's all I got for now, I haven't experimented anymore since the last post, I'm currently trying to figure out how to import map objects into the game, but for some reason they are always invisable (but in game since the collision is there).
Posted 16 December 2005 - 02:58 PM Edited by Cerbera, 16 December 2005 - 07:19 PM.
It seems that dolly convertors for semi trailers are the preferred method in big countries (USA and Australia). Having a look around, the configuration I was thinking about is only present on truck-trailer combinations, rather than tractor-trailer combinations for road trains.
However, having to spawn twice as many trailors won't satisfy the "I just wanna play!" mentality of your typical GTA gamer. That's why I recommend creating one type of trailer which has the dolly system built in like a big version of the baggage trailers. They do exist and although they are rare, the point of making a mod for GTA is gameplay. I think creating a semi trailor which can be followed by trailers with built-in dollys will be more popular because it will be nicer to play with.
(EDIT) Longest road train - 1.2kilometres long!!
Posted 16 December 2005 - 05:54 PM
Posted 20 December 2005 - 05:15 AM Edited by DeathSquad, 20 December 2005 - 08:33 AM.
Further experiment shows you don't even need the misc_a dummy on the back of the trailer if you use bagboxb behind it. There is an object (the hitch that extends out) called misc_b, and a hookup dummy at the end. I'm not sure if the misc_b has anything to do codewise, it may just be the hookup dummy, but more experimenting of course would be needed.
So basically I need to create the converter dolly.
Posted 20 December 2005 - 05:19 PM
Dollie with the rest...
I can't get these ingame though, but this may be what you want. Let me know if anything should be changed, this was done relatively fast.
Posted 20 December 2005 - 05:42 PM
If you use a dolly convertor, this mod won't be any fun to use because of having to spawn and hook up these fiddly little objects. The best way to do it would be to have a semi trailor followed by truck trailors, which have a steering front axle built in. It will still be realistic since that type of configuration does get used and it will be a lot easier to spawn the trailors and hook them up.
I know what you mean about how frustrating this sort of experimental work can be, though. Might be best to take a break from it for a few days and come back with a fresh head.
Posted 20 December 2005 - 08:23 PM Edited by DeathSquad, 20 December 2005 - 08:37 PM.
@Cerbera: I'm clear headed, this is the first time I've played around with this in a week. What leads me to believe its not the handling is the fact I can hook up two trailers and have no problems. The second a third trailer is connected, I get the bouncing and such. There's a difference between the setup I'm trying with the trailers directly connected and the baggage cars.
As these trailers are setup, they are overhanging on each other, I have moved the front axle up to the front since the landing gear cannot be used (as its misc_a in the model, which is the dummy needed to hook them up this way) and for stablization.
The baggage cars are hooked up with a hitch in the front, and connect to the rear and are not overhanging on each other. What leads me to believe its not handling is the fact I can hook up two trailers directly and they drive around fine. But if I hook up a third trailer, I start getting the bouncing and dragging, to the point you can't even move them.
|BAGBOXA 3800.0 30000.0 2.0 0.0 0.0 -0.5 90 0.45 0.75 0.5 5 120.0 18.0 5.0 R D 8.0 0.30 0 25.0 1.5 0.05 0.0 0.30 -0.15 0.5 0.0 0.65 0.25 9000 3100 4 1 1 0|
This is the handling setup for the trailer. I know you're good at handling aspects, feel free to give suggestions. This is the handling I started with, I didn't keep any of the changes from last night.
If anyone with the editing ability wants to play around with it too, just extract artict3.dff and artict3.txd, open it up in zmod2 or whatever you are using. Delete the landing gear called "misc_a", move the tires up to roughly where the landing gear was, then rename "misc_b" which is a dummy in the back center to "misc_a". Save and replace "bagboxa" dff and txd with the artict3 files. Use the handling above.
Posted 21 December 2005 - 03:50 PM
So where do I send the dollie? Or should it be more of a cart? mmm...
Posted 21 December 2005 - 05:26 PM Edited by Cerbera, 21 December 2005 - 05:35 PM.
What I've been trying to describe (obviously havn't done a good job of it, lol) is something like this:
Artic1, Artic2 and Artic3 would be modified so they had the misc_a connector dummy on the rear at exactly the right height and exactly central. They would act the same as semi-trailers, same as the originals, but with this extra connector on their tail.
BagBoxA and BagBoxB would basically be much larger, longer versions of themselves. They still would use the front connector with automatically steering front wheels and would act as truck-trailers rather than semi-trailers. At the rear of these new truck-trailers would be one axle to check if the system worked. If it did work, another axle would be added to the rear if possible. On the tail of these truck-trailers would be the misc_a connector positioned in the same way as the Artic1-3 trailers would have it.
This system allows for regular semi rigs by using a regular semi rig with the adapted semi trailers. To create a road train, one of the new BagBoxA and BagBoxB trailers would be attached to the adapted semi trailer. Additional BagBoxA and BagBoxB trailers would then be attached behind this.
Might be worth experimenting with this to see if it will work better than the current system? There would be no need for dolly convertors in this system, making it easier to play with and it might operate in a more stable manner.
(EDIT) If you can find any method which works, that will be great - doesn't have to be this system. Everything will probably need to be set up precisely for any system to work well, so rough tests might not be sufficient to find out what is possible.
Posted 21 December 2005 - 07:48 PM
Posted 22 December 2005 - 07:12 AM Edited by DeathSquad, 22 December 2005 - 09:07 AM.
@Cerbera: Yeah, if that is what you meant the first time, I definitely wasn't getting it. Basically I was thinking on the rear of the first trailer you'd have another 5th wheel, and thus you'd connect the trailers. The front axles are setup right, its just how I was connecting them, which was overlapping each trailer, which as you said was taking the weight off the trailer and front axle. The tires do turn but I'm sure you could float the front of the trailer and the game engine would turn them anyways.
But I will thank you for the picture, cause that works out perfectly. I wish I had thought of that. Added the front coupler to trailer with the hookup dummy, and thus can connect them without a dolly. Handling seems fine, like it was working when I was using the coupler cart. I will note that you can't use the Artic trailers though, I modded one with the misc_a coupler lined up with the hitch of the bagboxa/b trailers, and even another artic trailer. So I'm pretty positive somewhere in the coding of the game, its setup specifically to allow the bagbox trailers to connect with each other. What I ponder though is the fact with the small baggage cars, I was capable of hooking up an artic trailer to the end. Also goes with the fact you can connect the bagbox cars to one and another -without- the misc_a connector dummy on the back.
So what I'm thinking is Bagboxa be the trailer that'll hook up with to the semi, then bagboxb be the trailers making up the rest of the road train. Hopefully if I am right about not needing the misc_a connector dummy on the back of the trailers, then bagboxa can be replaced with one of the artic trailers (original or mods), and keep the landing gear (which is also called misc_a), then the baboxb trailers will have the up front axle, which as the code already tells it to, the wheels will turn helping along to move the trailers.
@Mercie: I'm using Zmod2 and I think its something to do with that, cause I haven't touched the TXD file. Of course I looked around for anything about txd compression in Zmod2, since I spent 3 days trying to install a map piece which would only appear as an invis object with collision, then noticed I was saving it as a VC Dff...Even though we're not going to be using the dolly, I wouldn't mind getting a copy of it. Send it to [email protected], sadly to say I'm a dial up user (not by choice or cheapness either), so e-mail works best for me. If not I can probably setup a temp FTP upload on my server.
But for now I'll go screw around with Zmod and try and get the models to export correctly, and make sure that you don't need the misc_a connector dummy on the rear of the trailers, so the first trailer can have its landing gear back.
EDIT: Been playing for a couple of hours, system seems to work great, and pretty stable, I've been smashing into cars, even had a bike go under the middle trailer, had them roll onto their side and get back up (not always). ATM I'm going to post in the Request & Recruit for someone to design a pair of trailers for this mod, cause I know my 3d skills are not good enough for vehicles yet, even for a simple box on wheels.
Posted 22 December 2005 - 02:31 PM
Would be great to have a car transporter which uses the surface type of the Packer, so you could park cars on it. You could have two levels and use the Packer as a loading ramp. There are endless possibilities, so you might end up with quite a few car makers building new types of trailer using the techniques you've discovered.
It might be worth experimenting with other vehicles to see if they can be given the capability of towing some types of trailer. Altering the Class field in the vehicles.ide file to match a class of vehicle which can tow trailers and adding the extra dummy might be all it would take?
Posted 22 December 2005 - 09:37 PM
Posted 22 December 2005 - 09:46 PM
|QUOTE (Montenegro @ Dec 22 2005, 21:37)|
| CooL Pontiac GTO 1965 (DeathSquad) Are you edit with program ZModeler & 3DS MAX|
and what exactly does that have to do with road trains?
Posted 22 December 2005 - 10:03 PM
|QUOTE (dr. hobo @ Dec 22 2005, 21:46)|
and what exactly does that have to do with road trains?
Posted 24 December 2005 - 08:38 AM
NOTICE!: This file is not to be disturbuted on any GTA Modding site, this is only a test file and a full version will be released.
Yeah, might as well let people enjoy this since I know getting help from others can be really hard, espcially when you're asking for a 3d model of something. The above RAR archieve contains the two DFF trailer models for BagboxA and BagboxB, they are nothing more than the modded versions of the in game trailer, and to be mean I made sure most of the textures were stripped, just cause I don't want this passed around (like most sites having my I420 v1.6 when it ended with v2.2). And as Cerbera said, proof of concept. The truck is of course -not- a part of this, you can go download it from this Truck Pack just recently posted in the Vehicle Showroom. Actually I plan to PM the Alexander after the holidays and see if he'd be interested in making the models.
[ How To Install ]
1. Replace Bagboxa and Bagboxb with the provided DFFs. Rebuild Archieve.
2. Replace the handling data for bagboxa and bagboxb from the data given in the DSREADME file.
3. Play San An.
[ How To Hook Up The Trailers ]
- Method A: Use a vehicle spawner to spawn the trailers behind each other, if you get the distances between them all right you can hook up the road train trailers by hand (pushing on them). The hitch hooks up to the center of the rear trailer. Bagboxa (vehicle id 206) is the trailer that hooks up to the actual Semi-Truck. Bagboxb are the trailers that make up the rest of the road train.
- Method B: The real way, in a large open area, spawn the trailers, hook the 1st trailer up to the truck and drive in a circle, come up next to the trailer and once clear drive ahead of it, back up the trailer and connect the next trailer (without jackknifing). Repeat the same for the third trailer (which is really hard to do, spawn the third one..).
Then go drive. The trailers have a good tolerance for bumps and being rammed by high speed cars, they can go as far as rolling on their sides and then righting themselves again. Mainly jackknifing them will disconnect them, and any major bump/jump.
Enjoy & Merry Christmas.
Posted 24 December 2005 - 03:06 PM Edited by Cerbera, 24 December 2005 - 03:38 PM.
(EDIT) Oh, it's supposed to be ID 606 (BagBoxA) and 607 (BagBoxB). Road Train is ID 515.
(EDIT2) Hey, it works! How come you didn't make the Artic1/Artic2/Artic3 trailers into the semi-trailer which the truck-trailers attach to?
Anyway, I spawned a three-trailer road train in South Tierra Robada:
800 x 600, 57.7kB.
Drove it to San Fierro via the Garver Bridge, went along the raised freeway to Foster Valley and turned West onto the Interstate. Went through the tunnel and took the first right, squeezing it up the 2-laner which runs along the West coast of San Fierro. Followed it to the North of the island where it becomes a split four-laner along the promenade.
Stopped off at Michelle's, and she seemed to like it:
800 x 600, 91.1kB.
Lots of fun! It handles really well, but would be better if BagBoxA and BagBoxB were two different truck-trailers and the Artic1-3 were used as the semi-trailer. You'd have loads more combinations, then.
Posted 24 December 2005 - 03:35 PM
Posted 24 December 2005 - 03:42 PM
DeathSquad - I'm going to test this later, looks very intresting.
Posted 24 December 2005 - 03:57 PM
|QUOTE (Montenegro @ Dec 24 2005, 15:35)|
|Can i modeling cars with 3ds max7 and import cars to SA|
Stop asking lame things in topics which have nothing about it to do.. You will probaly never learn to f*cking model either >_<
Posted 24 December 2005 - 04:08 PM
Posted 24 December 2005 - 04:19 PM
Anyway, four trailers is a lot more difficult to drive than three and the fourth will easily get knocked off if you drive to fast over bumps in the road. Also, you need a hell of a lot more space to turn four trailers, so you can only use them on interstates and wide roads.
If you are careful, you get something like this:
800 x 600, 107kB.
Posted 24 December 2005 - 07:34 PM Edited by DeathSquad, 24 December 2005 - 07:48 PM.
I think I had this written out for my previous post, but forgot to include it last night. The Artict# Trailers won't hook up to each other, even with correct dummies in place. You don't need the rear connector dummy on the bagbox trailers, they will hook up no matter what, so I'm assuming the code dictates that the baggage carts can connect to each other. So to get the Artict# trailers to hook up would probably require SCM editing or even EXE, I'm not much of a coder outside C Source, so I'm assuming.
Currently I'm talking with Alexander_ of the PCH Team who just released a Truck Pack over in the showroom about making the trailers, said he is interested in the job. And there'll be at least two trailers, a semi-trailer and then the box containers to tow behind, as you've decribed Cerbera.
And just a little trucking industry, having two trailers is known as pulling a "Double" and three trailers is pulling a "Triple". Anything after three is called a Road Train. Road Trains are not often used due to the amount of space it takes for them to turn, in the United States you can only find them out west in the plains. They're more famous down in Australia, which has lots of open flat land. I know of one company that has two road trains, each pulling a mile worth of trailers behind them. The two trains cross over a large area of desert, always going in opposite directions.
Even double or tripples are hard to find in the United States, our here in New York State we have the "Interstate Special" which is just a semi-truck pulling two 53 foot trailers. The only triples I've seen consist of a 48 foot trailer pulling two "pup" trailers which are about 24 to 28 feet long. They're called Interstate Specials just for the fact they're restricted to the interstates, and can only travel up to a mile away from them before becoming illegal.
There is one effect that these trailers don't seem to do, and you can test this out. Its known as the "Crack the Whip" effect, which is when you jerk the wheel really hard, say to one side, then continue straight. The jolt makes the trailers behind ripple back and forth, and if you do it hard enough the rear trailer can easily roll over.
But if I haven't already mentioned it, or just cause I always like to say it, I am a truck driver, and they are fun to drive (and freakin dangerous).
Merry Christmas all, screenies are always good and seeing how long you can make a set of trailers. If its the fact the game spawns other vehicles around you that causes the trailers to disappear, I'd be interested in removing all the cars and maybe even peds, just to see how long of a road train you could create. I think it'd be fun if you could get around 10 trailers.
Interesting, Alexander pointed this out to me in his reply PM, proof that the Road Train was one of many things Rockstar never completed. This is an unused trailer found in the IMG Archieve, called rdtraint.dff and rdtraint.txd. By the name its obvisouly meant to be the Road Train Trailer, and note the extra 5th wheel in the rear of the trailer. They probably did have this code working, but possibly did what I did earlier with having the weight of the trailer depend on the next trailer. I'll have to play around with this thing. Obviously they still used the trailer model for the other trailer that looks like this, just removed the 5th wheel on the back.
Posted 24 December 2005 - 07:59 PM Edited by Cerbera, 24 December 2005 - 08:04 PM.
The first trailer (the semi-trailer) would either be Artic1, or it would be Artic2, or it would be Artic3. There would only be one Artic model in the train, chosen from one of those models. The Artic model would only connect to the tractor unit, it would not need to connect to any other Artic models.
Now, behind the first trailer would be the rear trailers (truck-trailers). These could be a string of BagBoxA models, or a string of BagBoxB models, or a mixture of the two.
Then you could have all these combinations of road train:-
- Road Train + Artic1 + BagBoxA + BagBoxA + BagBoxA
- Road Train + Artic2 + BagBoxA + BagBoxA + BagBoxA
- Road Train + Artic3 + BagBoxA + BagBoxA + BagBoxA
- Road Train + Artic1 + BagBoxA + BagBoxA + BagBoxB
- Road Train + Artic2 + BagBoxA + BagBoxA + BagBoxB
- Road Train + Artic3 + BagBoxA + BagBoxA + BagBoxB
- Road Train + Artic1 + BagBoxA + BagBoxB + BagBoxB
- Road Train + Artic2 + BagBoxA + BagBoxB + BagBoxB
- Road Train + Artic3 + BagBoxA + BagBoxB + BagBoxB
- Road Train + Artic1 + BagBoxB + BagBoxB + BagBoxB
- Road Train + Artic2 + BagBoxB + BagBoxB + BagBoxB
- Road Train + Artic3 + BagBoxB + BagBoxB + BagBoxB
- Road Train + Artic1 + BagBoxB + BagBoxB + BagBoxA
- Road Train + Artic2 + BagBoxB + BagBoxB + BagBoxA
- Road Train + Artic3 + BagBoxB + BagBoxB + BagBoxA
- Road Train + Artic1 + BagBoxB + BagBoxA + BagBoxA
- Road Train + Artic2 + BagBoxB + BagBoxA + BagBoxA
- Road Train + Artic3 + BagBoxB + BagBoxA + BagBoxA
I've split them into sets of three so they are easier to read. The fifth trailer always causes the first trailer to dissapear, but four trailers is pretty reliable if you use THGLOJ for reduced traffic. Of course, the user wouldn't have to connect four trailers every time: They could use any of 3 types of regular semi rig, 6 combinations of doubles, 12 combinations of triple, as well as these 18 combinations of road train.
Do you see what I mean now?
Posted 24 December 2005 - 09:37 PM
Posted 24 December 2005 - 10:15 PM Edited by Mercie, 24 December 2005 - 11:08 PM.
Click for bigger...
There is an 'extra' on each trailer that is essentially the cap. Compare the first 3 trailers with the last. They are all the same sans one small object.
The trailer connects to the linerunner, however, the collision file does not allow the second trailer to get over the fifth wheel. I'll get to work on this
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