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[Official] Myriad Islands Train

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JasonB
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#211

Posted 15 April 2006 - 05:03 AM Edited by JasonB, 15 April 2006 - 05:10 AM.

I've done most of the track from Necrosis through my docklands and upto the northern islands. On both sides it stops short, I'm going to import some bits of Necrosis and Black Mesa area so I can terminate the sea-bridge sections as close to land as necessary. A small problem I've found is that Respawn uses very different tracks, so as it approaches Necrosis I'll have to modify it so it merges properly.

user posted image

QUOTE
Any chance you guys can do what R* never could(be bothered to) and make some kind of points system for changing tracks?

I don't think that is possible, the train system is very basic, just XYZ points that the train follows.

Oh, and for the carpark I added an underground section which should cater for more then 100 cars, and it is very open, so it shouldn't be too different from the Escobar one, only underground.

grovespaz
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#212

Posted 15 April 2006 - 08:31 AM

QUOTE (JasonB @ Apr 15 2006, 05:03)
QUOTE
Any chance you guys can do what R* never could(be bothered to) and make some kind of points system for changing tracks?

I don't think that is possible, the train system is very basic, just XYZ points that the train follows.

Well, you could, but it would make the train oath file 2 times that long..

Say you have this track:
CODE
    | 1,1
    | 1,2
    | 1,3
   / \
1,4  1,5

Your path file woud look sumthing like this:

CODE
1,1
1,2
1,2
1,4
....Back to the start of the track...
1,1
1,2
1,3
1,5

See what i mean?
It would be a little tedious(if thats the right word smile.gif )

BenMillard
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#213

Posted 15 April 2006 - 03:16 PM Edited by Cerbera, 15 April 2006 - 03:36 PM.

Don't modify the tracks to fit the Necrosis track. They were just betas. Respawn will make any transitions on his island since he knows what the final Necrosis tracks will be like.

That route doesn't look much like the one in the 3D draft. I don't have access to my home PC because we are redecorating the room. The library uses IE and doesn't allow multiple windows to be open (WTF?!?!) so I can't easily check back through the topic to show you how the route should be.

There seems to be a wibble from illURB to your illCOM station, then there's a weird chicane as the railway exits your station. The curve which takes the railway onto Necrosis seems a fair bit sharper than the one I did in the 3D draft, IIRC?

(EDIT) I don't think we should make train paths until the route is built, in-game and totally finalised. Otherwise it could mean a lot of unecessary paths work due to later refinement the models.

(EDIT2) LOL, they havn't disabled Shift+LeftClick so I can open new windows that way. biggrin.gif

Here's the route past illSUB. The curves are gentle:
user posted image
1024 x 768, 48.7kB.

This was the last 2D route plan for the whole railway. The illSTA island will be rotated clockwise by a few degrees so no kink is required. I put it on a straight axis because that made it easier to draw:
user posted image
1500 x 1500, 244kB.

Here's a shot from the 3D draft towards your station. The approach is still quite a gentle curve:
user posted image
1500 x 1500, 117kB.

So, I think your route is not accurate. Also, you havn't made the optimised bridge sections yet so how can you be building the route? dontgetit.gif

JasonB
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#214

Posted 16 April 2006 - 07:07 AM

QUOTE
(EDIT) I don't think we should make train paths until the route is built, in-game and totally finalised. Otherwise it could mean a lot of unecessary paths work due to later refinement the models.

No-one is making train path co-ordinates yet, it was just a little discussion on the possibilities of making track improvements.

QUOTE
So, I think your route is not accurate. Also, you havn't made the optimised bridge sections yet so how can you be building the route?

Yes I have, I wouldn't have assembled so many bits of the track if I hadn't made sections that were optimised and textured properly. As far as I know, these bridge sections don't have a single wasted polygon (except if you count cutting bits of track up so you can export them into individual models)

QUOTE
There seems to be a wibble from illURB to your illCOM station, then there's a weird chicane as the railway exits your station. The curve which takes the railway onto Necrosis seems a fair bit sharper than the one I did in the 3D draft, IIRC?

That was a minor problem, because in your drafts and the final plan, the track was dangerously close to illSUB, and since it is a rich mansion island, the residents don't want to be disturbed by loud trains. That plus it's not that easy to follow the route across the docks meant I had to make some modifications. There is a big curve around illSUB, and a curve that is more sharp, but definitely feasible to Necrosis. And since this route the track takes across the sea isn't as vital as the land route, I didn't feel the need to try to hug the route as much.

QUOTE
This was the last 2D route plan for the whole railway. The illSTA island will be rotated clockwise by a few degrees so no kink is required. I put it on a straight axis because that made it easier to draw:

That kink up there is quite far away for illSTA, in fact it is a lot closer to illURB. It's there because the route demanded it move that way so it doesn't plow right through the island. And illSTA will be much easier to make if it doesn't have to be rotated around.

QUOTE
Here's a shot from the 3D draft towards your station. The approach is still quite a gentle curve:

I had to make the curve sharper when leaving the docklands, otherwise it would be too far off of the route.

BenMillard
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#215

Posted 19 April 2006 - 05:12 PM Edited by Cerbera, 21 April 2006 - 02:26 PM.

Looking at the 3D draft, I think I actually went for a straight Southward route from illURB in the end, so that kink isn't needed. That should also give you space to make the East curve to the loading platform a bit gentler.

The 3D draft updated the curve past illSUB so it had loads more space. That's shown in the screenshot I posted. There's loads of space and the Necrosis corner is still gentle.

Btw, the route is vital; one or other part of the railway will always be visible from a great deal of MI. It will be a major feature of the landscape and might involve missions at a later date (even if they are just converted Freight missions). That's why we spent half a year on design and development. It is important. smile.gif

(EDIT) JB and I have been talking about further developments to the track. He's going to be refining the route tomorrow and we are going to rough out the illSTA island to make sure the route allows enough space for it.

Here's a rough picture to show the sort of scale I imagined illSTA would be at:
user posted image
1024 x 768, 210kB.

Legend for the lines on the image:
  • Red = Railway tracks.
  • Green = Edges of roads and the car park.
  • Blue = Edges of landscape.
  • Gray = Face of a concrete wall.
  • Yellow = Face of a wall which won't be on the model.
I left in the yellow part to show the four lane freeway descending underground. The freeway enters a tunnel beneath the railway and continues descending as it loops around the South end of illSTA. It continues to descend around the curve and for the first half of the next straight. There is a flat (horizontal) section halfway along this straight with an entrance on the inside to get into the underground carpark.

The freeway descends again and goes around the North curve. Halfway down the next straight there is then an entrance for the next level of the car park. Freeway then descends around the South curve, with entrance to next level halfway along next straight. It continues to spiral down like this until it gets to the sea bed, where it exits from the South curve and heads towards JB's Port Orchid.

There should not be lots and lots of levels to this car park. I'd say between five and ten levels, giving the freeway between two and five loops. Each level can have a large roof space between it and the level above, allowing the freeway to descent more steeply. The curves will be downhill as well as the straights to help it get to the sea bed faster.


We need to find a space to make the bridge reach the illCOM freeway. I think we could run it over part of Snow Racer's marina and have it meet the road where he already has a junction:
user posted image
1024 x 768, 93.3kB.

The red thing in the background is a piece of the 3D draft railway route. I've turned it over to face the camera so it shows up on the small picture. The illSTA island can be mirrored from North to South. This would allow the bridge to illCOM to exit from the South West corner of illSTA, allowing illSTA to be placed to the North East of the marina. That would be a sensible place for it to go because it would shelter the small boats moored in the marina.

If we just figure out the top surface and get the shape roughly done, we can confirm the route to illRES. That will allow illspirit to be sure his Northern sections will connect properly with JB's sections.

JasonB
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#216

Posted 22 April 2006 - 06:32 AM

I've completed the alterations to the track, it follows the route more closely then it did before, but some parts are quite far away from the route (namely where it leaves the dockland, but there's nothing I can do about that, whithout moving a ton of stuff). I removed the kink when it goes north, so it's a long, straight line up north now, and from the dockland-Necrosis is a lot smoother (I'll likely have to change it a bit to get it to connect with the Necrosis track, but for now it will suffice).

user posted image

About illSTA, I really don't like that design Cerb. It doesn't seem very realistic to me. I had somehing more like this in mind:

user posted image

The Dark Green is grassy/park area, the purplish-red are small shops, toilets and other station facilities, and the light green is the platform. The part of the road that goes east from the intersection is the part that goes underground, as it does it has roads similar to highway onramps on the side that go to the large underground carpark, and the road continues on to merge with my underground freeway. The circular road part that is cloest to the platforms would have bus stops, and around it would have short-term carparks for picking up people and leaving right after. Around the island would be an artificial concrete sea wall.

illspirit
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#217

Posted 22 April 2006 - 01:18 PM

user posted image

Cran.
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#218

Posted 22 April 2006 - 01:51 PM

Phew. That's just astonishing.. So we're finally getting closer to the track being done eh?

Vercetti Gangsta
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#219

Posted 22 April 2006 - 02:09 PM

Looking extremely sexy tounge.gif Can't wait! inlove.gif

BenMillard
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#220

Posted 22 April 2006 - 04:03 PM Edited by Cerbera, 22 April 2006 - 04:41 PM.

That looks even better than I hoped it would, illspirit. I understand you've been working with JB on the position of that section. The illSTA island will be placed on the track as you've positioned it, so that part of the route is now stable for you to work from, AFAIK. smile.gif

We should make sure that the base of the pillars are not so far so far above sea level that CJ would be unable to climb onto them in calm seas. That allows you to shoot helicopters without swimming around in the open trying to find a boat to stand on, which is quite frustrating when it happens in GTASA.


JB, there is still a kink in that route as it joins the illCOM-Necrosis section. The 3D draft uses varied radius curves through this "S" section to keep as much from the mansions as possible without comprimising the approach to Necrosis. Varying the radius ensures a smooth transition between the curves, too.

The curve from the East end of your station doesn't seem to start as early as it could, making it sharper than it needs to be. Maybe you could at smooth it out something like this:
user posted image
There's a moderately long straight before the illSTA curve starts, so the kink you currently have could be smoothed out Westwards to merge with the illSTA curve seamlessly.

The difference between the average radius of the curve past illSTA and the curve onto Necrosis shouldn't be as much as what you've got. Here's what the 3D draft uses:
user posted image
1024 x 768, 48.7kB.

Jason, that island reminds of mods made for GTA1 by newbies in 1998. The land is about 90% roads with only 10% for buildings! tounge.gif Also, remember that the railway is about 20 metres above sea level, so the surface of the station is far above sea level. There wouldn't be space for your underground ramp to get down to sea level (let alone the sea bed) before it fell out of the far side of the island. It would require hairpin turns like an Italian mountain road to spiral down within that land shape, too. With respect, I don't think you've thought about the practicalities of that design thoroughly enough.

What isn't realistic about my design? The only worry I've had with it is that it might be stupidly high above sea level and a level crossing there is unusual. These can be solved by having the surface of the island about 10 metres lower than the railway, with the station on a platform level with the tracks. The level crossing would then become a bridge carrying the railway over it, which would be safer and thus more realistic.

The oval shape of the island means the freeway can have quite gentle turns as it descends. By having the freeway drop underground, it only takes up one edge of the land. This leaves much more room for your station and any shops we have on it.

Mark
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#221

Posted 22 April 2006 - 04:19 PM

WOW loving the render biggrin.gif Illys turn to model now to connect al the way over to Necrosis eh? tounge.gif

locO G
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#222

Posted 22 April 2006 - 10:11 PM

QUOTE
We should make sure that the base of the pillars are not so far so far above sea level that CJ would be unable to climb onto them in calm seas.


Maybe in the future a few sections of the railway bridge and surrounding area could be released as free lots for people to model inspection moorings and the like, perhaps even tiny islands.

JasonB
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#223

Posted 23 April 2006 - 10:13 AM

QUOTE
Jason, that island reminds of mods made for GTA1 by newbies in 1998. The land is about 90% roads with only 10% for buildings!

Hardly. I neglected to include the coast on the render, but it would be quite a distance away from the road. And since the idea of making that was to get my point across, it looks rough. Really, if I made it, the shops would take up a lot more room on the island, and the roads would be scaled down a bit.

QUOTE
Also, remember that the railway is about 20 metres above sea level, so the surface of the station is far above sea level. There wouldn't be space for your underground ramp to get down to sea level (let alone the sea bed) before it fell out of the far side of the island. It would require hairpin turns like an Italian mountain road to spiral down within that land shape, too. With respect, I don't think you've thought about the practicalities of that design thoroughly enough.

The piece of road that I made descends 15m, and is 60m long. So for every 4 metres you drive, you ascend or descend 1m. I have seen roads (and major roads) with more severe gradients then that. And by the time the road leaves the island it would be easily below sea level. It wouldn't require and hairpin curve, or any curve at all. Hell, it would probably be even better to lower most of the island anyway, make it roughly the same height as illcom, that way the road starts even lower. And that's what I wanted to eliminate, curves when descending, they don't seem real for a tunnel-freeway. I have never seen anyplace anywhere that has a design like that, and to me it doesn't seem fun to drive through.

QUOTE
What isn't realistic about my design?

Every major train station I have ever seen (and this is probably the most major station in all of Myriad), has places where buses, taxis and cars can quickly stop and drop off passengers, or get passengers. Where exactly does this go on yours? You have that small car park, which doesn't seem suitable, and the only other road descends into a tunnel, which isn't the best place for a bus to turn around. My design has the circular road, which means vehicles can easily stop, pick up or drop off people and turn around and head back to illcom/Port Orchid easily.

QUOTE
The curve from the East end of your station doesn't seem to start as early as it could, making it sharper than it needs to be. Maybe you could at smooth it out something like this:

The problem with changing the track when on the docks is it either:
*Support poles either go through buildings, obstruct building entrances or are removed/moved to some position that would create a weak spot in the track.
*Make smaller curve sections which might not be able to accommodate a full train carriage.
So the small 'kink' there is difficult to remove without causing chaos on the docks or making for unnecessary curves or changing too much stuff later on in the track. I'll do what I can though.

BenMillard
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#224

Posted 23 April 2006 - 05:45 PM Edited by Cerbera, 23 April 2006 - 09:15 PM.

You're right about the zone for busses. The North West corner (top left) could be an area for buses and taxis with a "drop off" zone for public use. The North East corner (top right) could then be the staff car park, or reserved parking for executives. Even my local station has these things, so you're right that they need to be included.

Here's my updated proposal:
user posted image
1024 x 768, 216kB.


A design showing what you've actually got in mind might help to clear up the things which don't seem right or aren't included. It doesn't have to be neat but it does need to show the things you are suggesting. smile.gif

If the road only descends 15m then it will only be at sea level. The tunnel to Port Orchid needs to be on the sea bed; tens of metres below the surface. Your freeway would need to double back on itself at least once get down there.

A gradient of 1:4 is too steep, especially for a freeway. Heavy vehicles (such as articulated lorries) cannot climb these at more than a crawl. Your freeway would need a shallower slope, with more turns. By using the circumference of a long oval we can minimise both the gradient and the sharpness of the turns required to reach the sea bed.


Where will the ramps and underground parking in your design be? How will vehicles move from one level of parking to another? With the oval, the underground parking fits neatly into the middle of the freeway spiral. Vehicles would use the spiral to go up and down the levels, just like a conventional multistorey car park.

American cities and airports are very large so these underground systems are less rare. GTASA's airports in Los Santos and San Fierro mimmick the underground systems present in real airports. I've travelled through curved motorway tunnels even here in the UK. In Germany, Italy and other places with a lot of height changes it's common for tunnels to be curved. Driving around the underground stuff in GTASA is actually quite fun. smile.gif


The radius of the kink at the Southernmost point of the route is a tiny fraction of the illSUB curve it leads to. There is a length of straight track between the kink and the curve which could be used to help smooth the kink. From the aerial shot you gave, my proposed smoothing didn't seem to go through any buildings.


(EDIT) I've just been showed a set of new renders by illspirit to figure out the details of running the train up the East coast of illURB.

The 3D draft proposed that the bridge from illCOM should slowly begin sloping upwards about 200 metres before it reached illURB:
illurb-east, 1053 x 414, 48kB.

After much debating and drafting, we've settled on a combination of changes. The first hbump is extended so that a small railway station can go on it. It will also give the bridge between the bumps a proper foundation. The bridge will curve slightly West and may be slightly uphill. When it reaches the second bump, it will immediatly enter a tunnel in the cliff face.

We played with various routes, settling on a smooth curve. It is shown in yellow with dark yellow indicating a tunnel:
illurb-east-smooth, 746 x 767, 43kB.

But the new land will look like this:
bbqtrain5, 1024 x 768, 283kB.

JasonB
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#225

Posted 24 April 2006 - 04:42 AM

As per your request, and to clarify my ideas, I drew what I think illSTA should be like. I hate using computerised drawing/paint programs so I drew it by hand. Some parts are a bit faint, because I didn't make it dark enough and because of data loss because I resized it a bit.

http://img156.images...650/idea0va.jpg

Top drawing:
The main part of the island is at the same height as illcom (6m above sea level). The road that continues forward leads forward and disappears is the tunnel, since illcom is so low it won't be a problem getting it under sea level and to the sea bed (where abouts on the Z axis does the seabed lie?). The road then loops around, with quick carparks on either side and infront of the station a bus stop. Infront of the elevated section for the platforms there are shops/facilities with a gap inbetween for access to the platoforms, tunnels lead under the platforms with stairs and elevators leading up to them (and this does happen, I have seen several stations where there are tunnels and at Parramatta station in Sydney it even connects to the shopping centre underground so noise is no issue). As the track approaches the island they seperate, this is because as illSTA is a busy station there is the centre platform between the two tracks for departures, once people have gotten off the train the doors on the other side open (I don't think that's possible though confused.gif ) and people get on from the other platform.

Bottom Drawing:
This shows how the underground road would work. The road descends for a bit, then stops and has exits on the side similar to highway on ramps which allow traffic to enter/exit the carpark without disturbing the normal flow of traffic, as the cars go on these on/off ramps they descend into the carpark which is lower than the road where they get off. I didn't include it on the drawing but there would be ramps going up/down to other levels of the carpark. After the carpark entrance the road would stay flat for a short while so when it does start descending again it doesn't encroach on the carpark.

Also, your design still has a bus problem, buses that come from illcom and that return to illcom would be chaos. They would have to cut across through the road to get to the bus stop!

On a semi-related note, I forgot that in Vice the water level is at z6, and SA it is at z0. So when I model things I make a big plane at z0, except I never lowered everything 6 metres. Luckily I managed to fix things up so I don't have to adjust the height of the track and I've done some quick fixes to the docklands so that everything (mostly) is at the correct height again.

BenMillard
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#226

Posted 24 April 2006 - 01:37 PM Edited by Cerbera, 24 April 2006 - 07:54 PM.

The water still remains in the same place relative to the land, since all GTAVC objects get moved 6 units downwards for use in GTASA. No changes are necessary apart from this vertical offset of all buildings and land. Any changes you've made to accommodate water level at Z0 could end up at Z-6 when the land is moved.

(The follow positions are from MIVC; minus 6 from them to get MISA positions.)

The sea bed near the coast of the Northern islands in the GTAVC base land is at Z-5. With sea level at Z6 that means the water is 11 metres deep there, which is shallow. The sea bed for illCOM hasn't been made yet but it will be at least that deep because of the marina and because the island is in open water.

The freeway on illCOM runs at about Z12. If you put your island's surface at that level, the road will need to drop by about 23 metres before it reaches the edge of the island. Road tunnels under water are usually built in a trough in the sea bed which is then covered with gravel. That means the drop could be more like 30 metres if we have the tunnel ceiling level with the surface of the sea bed.

How are you going to fit a 20+ metre drop into that design without having an extremely steep freeway and/or using tight corners? An underground spiral is inevitable, which is why I based my design around one. smile.gif


The roads on your illSTA design also encourage vehicles to go across the main freeway. The junctions on my design will have traffic lights to manage traffic flow sensibly, like it is on other freeway junctions around MI. Your junctions are too complex for GTA's traffic light system, so drivers would have to take their chances. That seems just as chaotic, doesn't it?

Your island's surface is still dominated by a loop of four lane freeway at the expense of land for car parks and buildings.


There are still some issues with it but your updated design is more feasible than the first one. The platform complex is much like I have in mind for illSTA once the island surface is dropped down, so we agree on that much at least. tounge.gif

JasonB
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#227

Posted 25 April 2006 - 04:23 AM

QUOTE
The freeway on illCOM runs at about Z12. If you put your island's surface at that level, the road will need to drop by about 23 metres before it reaches the edge of the island. Road tunnels under water are usually built in a trough in the sea bed which is then covered with gravel. That means the drop could be more like 30 metres if we have the tunnel ceiling level with the surface of the sea bed.

The illSTA island is going to be quite wide, I'd say 150m total. And you said before a 1:4 gradient is unrealistic, I call crap on that. I have seen plenty of major roads that cater to all sorts of vehicles in Australia that have that gradient and speeds of 100kmph are easily achievable. It most certainly does not slow vehicles down to a crawl. A 1:3 or 1:2 gradient could do that. And if absolutely necessary the sea bed could be slightly raised so the tunnel can fit in snugly, and anyway, tunnels don't necessarily have to be underwater, the Sydney Harbour Tunnel consists of a trench dug into the sea bed and large concrete tunnel sections lowered into them, with additional protection added above. It doesn't necessarily have to burrow beneath the seabed.

QUOTE
Your island's surface is still dominated by a loop of four lane freeway at the expense of land for car parks and buildings.

The buildings on illSTA would be limited to small shops like convenience stores, toilets and station management buildings. And a small shopping complex could easily go under the platforms, as I have pointed out this is feasible and realistic.

QUOTE
The roads on your illSTA design also encourage vehicles to go across the main freeway. The junctions on my design will have traffic lights to manage traffic flow sensibly, like it is on other freeway junctions around MI. Your junctions are too complex for GTA's traffic light system, so drivers would have to take their chances. That seems just as chaotic, doesn't it?

I think SAs path and traffic systems can handle it. As it approaches the intersection you would branch the road off much like the big cloverleaf interchange in Los Santos, and much like that the road still continues forward. Except you would just place traffic lights in. Since all transfer between roads would be done before the traffic lights there would hardly be chaos. The point of the traffic lights is only to manage traffic between the tunnel-illcom and cars going round the loop.

BenMillard
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#228

Posted 25 April 2006 - 09:17 PM Edited by Cerbera, 25 April 2006 - 09:21 PM.

Gradients of 1:7 to 1:5 have to be marked on British maps because their steepness is so extreme. Gradients of 1:5 or steep are double marked because they cause big problems for heavy goods vehicles such as articulated lorries. You'd never find a gradient this steep on a motorway. I think you've misjudged the gradients which exist on real road, which is easy to do.

From your plan, the freeway slope looks about 60m long. That will mean a gradient of around 1:3 to drop 20m to the sea bed, or more like 1:2 if the tunnel is in a trench. Extreme gradients like this will spoil the otherwise realistic atmosphere of MISA. I think a side elevation of what you are planning is needed to see how the underground gradient will actually be. Wouldn't need much of detail but it would need to be scaled correctly else the gradient will be wrong.


I don't understand where you mean your traffic lights will be. Your plans don't show a complex interchange, they show a plain crossroad with small shortcuts across the corners. The traffic lights system isn't complex enough to manage the exit of the shortcuts as well as the main crossroads. Without the shortcuts it would be a regular traffic light junction, which would work fine.


(EDIT) Have you made much progress on smoothing out the route?

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#229

Posted 25 April 2006 - 11:07 PM

I like Cerbera's illSTA Design but may I suggest one thing: Mirror it N/S! That way cars going up have a less steep road to climb in curves than cars going down which makes sense. There is still the problem of brakes overheating but since the spiral won't be that long in total, it should not be that much of a problem. Maybe something like this could be included underground: http://www.thuerstein.de/YMD2005'08...0%20-%20A40.jpg There is gravel in it and it's for trucks with overheating breaks.

JasonB
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#230

Posted 26 April 2006 - 04:15 AM

QUOTE
Gradients of 1:7 to 1:5 have to be marked on British maps because their steepness is so extreme. Gradients of 1:5 or steep are double marked because they cause big problems for heavy goods vehicles such as articulated lorries. You'd never find a gradient this steep on a motorway. I think you've misjudged the gradients which exist on real road, which is easy to do.

Even so, with the size I think illSTA would be under by design a gradient of about 1:7 or 1:6 should be achievable, I think illSTA would be about 200m wide (which can easily fit between my island and illcom, the bridge is 600m long) and about 150m of slope. And another thing, why would trucks be going down the tunnel? Most tunnels aren't exactly catered to overly heavy or dangerous goods being taken through them, and my tunnel design was never intended to be used to move cargo, only people. Most cargo would go across the bridge, and cargo would either be moving to or from my docks or Necrosis, and if they were moving from my docks you'd want to take the shortest route, and my bridge is that route. And furthermore, trucks generally move slower than normal traffic, hence slowing down the flow of traffic in the tunnel, and trucks take considerable time to turn, and your design is one massive curve!

I have made a dodgy paint diagram showing a side view on how the tunnel route would go:
http://img136.images...lstaside4jr.jpg
The red line indicates sea level. It's more off-scale then I would have liked, but I'm terrible with computerised drawing programs. Additionally, the section between the intersection and the car park entrance is too steep.

QUOTE
I don't understand where you mean your traffic lights will be. Your plans don't show a complex interchange, they show a plain crossroad with small shortcuts across the corners. The traffic lights system isn't complex enough to manage the exit of the shortcuts as well as the main crossroads. Without the shortcuts it would be a regular traffic light junction, which would work fine.

A normal intersection holds traffic up to much. In this dodgy paint diagram I have shown how traffic would move:

http://img91.imagesh...ionroute7qr.jpg

The red box indicates where the traffic lights would be. Cars on the right-hand lane would be restricted to moving into the other road. Cars that are going through the traffic lights have to continue going straight ahead.

BenMillard
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#231

Posted 26 April 2006 - 10:30 AM Edited by Cerbera, 26 April 2006 - 10:46 AM.

Thanks, the side elevation makes it clearer.

A gradient of 1:7 is still too steep for a freeway. Making the island big enough for a sensible slope will require a huge island. Filling the surface of a large island will take ages, which will delay development of Port Orchid and other things you want to work on. It could also interfeer with any docks the West coast of your island has, as well as making the water through there impassable for shipping. Which would make your massive bridge pointless.

Deciding to disallow trucks on a freeway is crazy. Freeways are ideally suited to carrying trucks because the extra lanes makes it easy for other traffic to pass them. Why would the MI authorities spend millions of dollars on creating an underground tunnel network which couldn't carry freight to reduce congestion on other routes? Trucks have to take stuff to the actual building it is intended. They need good access to all commercial areas, not just the docks.

Trucks don't take "considerable time to turn" when they are following a road. At junctions and when turning around in yards, sure. The radius of the turns in my design are several times larger than the limits of an articulated vehicle's turning circle. Trucks would get around the turns easily.

We need a sensibly sized island with a sensibly sloped freeway. The oval seems to do that well.


Your traffic lit intersection design doesn't seem right, imho. The shortcuts across the corners exit directly into freeway traffic, which defeats the purpose of having traffic lights. The GTASA traffic lights system can't accomodate complex junctions like this, so a regular crossroads with smoothed corners would be fine. We've got junctions like that all over the illCOM freeways. They seem quite common in the USA.

JasonB
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#232

Posted 26 April 2006 - 12:15 PM

I believe I have a compromise that will satisfy both parties. I have combined the oval curve design of yours with the loopings bus/taxi stops and quick carparking. The picture I made is pretty crappy, but it should give you the general idea.

http://img100.images...mpromise6ng.jpg

The road that goes right at the intersection loops around the island a couple of times until it is at the right depth and then breaks out and goes to my tunnel.

The park highlighted yellow dips down a few metres and is where the car park entrance/exits are. They are somewhat like highway on/off ramps, designed for an easy entrance and exit but don't disturb traffic. There's also the bus stops as the road continues.

Obviously the roads would be more curved then shown, and I made the roads get too close to the platform buildings. The remaining area can be used for small parks and shops and such that can go there.

I believe this design, or one similar to it, should resolve the argument.

QUOTE
Your traffic lit intersection design doesn't seem right, imho. The shortcuts across the corners exit directly into freeway traffic, which defeats the purpose of having traffic lights. The GTASA traffic lights system can't accomodate complex junctions like this, so a regular crossroads with smoothed corners would be fine.

I don't see why having a set-up like that could be seen as detrimental, the middle lanes go forward and they are the ones that encounter the traffic lights as they are the ones that go through the centre of the intersection. The right hand lane goes down the side shortcut and goes onto the perpendicular road hence saving a lot of cars the trouble of going through the traffic lights. Paths can presumably be split as is seen in the Los Santos cloverleaf exchange, and you just place some traffic lights where necessary.

BenMillard
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#233

Posted 26 April 2006 - 03:57 PM Edited by Cerbera, 26 April 2006 - 06:02 PM.

QUOTE (JasonB @ Apr 26 2006, 12:15)
I don't see why having a set-up like that could be seen as detrimental, the middle lanes go forward and they are the ones that encounter the traffic lights as they are the ones that go through the centre of the intersection. The right hand lane goes down the side shortcut and goes onto the perpendicular road hence saving a lot of cars the trouble of going through the traffic lights. Paths can presumably be split as is seen in the Los Santos cloverleaf exchange, and you just place some traffic lights where necessary.
Because of the space limitations, the shortcuts have to be short. Vehicles wouldn't be able to get onto them when traffic was stopped at the lights on that side. Also, they wouldn't be able to pull out from the shortcut onto the freeway until the traffic lights stopped the freeway traffic in that direction. There is no advantage to the shortcut bits.


I like the idea of comprimise, since we shouldn't spend six months designing illSTA. tounge.gif

Since we generally agree that a spiral freeway is probably the best we can do with the space we've got, the oval shape seems certain. I think we both agree that the surface of illSTA should be roughly level with the highway on illCOM. This means the railway will be raised by ~10 metres from the illSTA surface.

We can dedicate the North end of the island to busses, taxis and the dropoff zone. The railway would pass overhead on pillars, like at your docks. I imagine this would look like a much smaller version of the carpark beneath the massive interchange in San Fierro:
user posted image
1024 x 768, 85kB.

The South end could be a shopping centre with the railway station on top. This would explain why so much underground parking in its core and how it is economically viable. I think it makes more sense for the railway to run through the middle to maximise the available length for the platform. The architectural styling of the island is up to you, I just want to make sure it has a sensible layout. smile.gif

BenMillard
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#234

Posted 30 April 2006 - 09:53 PM Edited by Cerbera, 15 July 2006 - 12:34 PM.

JB has been looking into smoothing the route and making it more accurate. This is very labour intensive but it will make the railway more authentic, fitting in with the MISA atmosphere.

Island Design
I've been updating my design to get it up to speed with our (JB and I) current thinking about illSTA. Illspirit suggested I do a top-down plan instead, so here it is:
user posted image
768 x 1024, 107kB.

Putting the island this way round means it can sit opposite the marina, protecting boats from storms and the open sea. Yargh.

In this design, the railway is now raised ~10 metres from the surface of illSTA. The surface of illSTA is about level with the illCOM freeway as it goes past Snow Racer's marina. The whole of the North is now a carpark like the one in my previous post but with bus stops, taxi rank and dropoff areas. There could be warehouse doors along the South edge of the carpark for deliveries to the buildings beneath the station.

Bridge from illCOM to illSTA
A possible location (track is red thing in background):
user posted image
1024 x 768, 93.3kB.

Freeway Tunnel from illSTA to Port Orchid
Since the station is now raised up, the freeway tunnel could start earlier than my designs show. The car park junctions have traffic lights, so car park traffic doesn't need a good view of freeway traffic.

Having scoured GTASA to find a style of freeway tunnel which would suit the illSTA spiral, the best seems to be from San Fierro:
user posted image
1024 x 768, 85kB.

The rumble strips and the slalom pillars make this style of tunnel really nice to drive in.

JasonB
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#235

Posted 01 May 2006 - 03:15 AM

I've made a minor modification to the plan, I'm still not too keen on the sort of intersection you have drawn up. I think that a standard intersection would prevent the chaos that looks likely to occur in your design.

user posted image

The yellow lines are my modified road edges. I don't think a large curve to enter the island is necessary, if you put that there for trucks or other large vehicles then it's not going to be a pretty picture trucks exiting my tunnel exits on my island really need such large curves. All my exits are standard intersections. So in my modifications I made the area more square, the intersection exit to the east leads to a small cut out area of the platform designed to allow buses to stop (to stop congestion in the parking lot due to buses and I think an area like that would be fairly snazzy, a concealed bus stop that also protects passengers for the rain and whatnot). Along the edge of the carpark would be a one-way road that circles it. At the carpark exit there is a small curved bit to ease cars around the corner.

About the bridge from illcom location, where abouts exactly do you want to cut through the marine/docks area?

QUOTE
Freeway Tunnel from illSTA to Port Orchid
Since the station is now raised up, the freeway tunnel could start earlier than my designs show. The car park junctions have traffic lights, so car park traffic doesn't need a good view of freeway traffic.

Having scoured GTASA to find a style of freeway tunnel which would suit the illSTA spiral, the best seems to be from San Fierro:

I've already modelled the tunnel that goes through my island (actually I've modelled it twice, over the past 2 or 3 days I remodelled it, my reason for this was the original tunnel was pretty sloppy, was bumpy, the changes in height were rough and bumpy, I changed the Broadway exit for it and that made some problems and I don't think I left enough space for the complicated on/off ramps that will be needed for connecting it with the illSTA tunnel). The tunnel I've made is more along the lines of GTA3's Porter Tunnel, I've used the same textures, although I'm looking for some textures to replace those I 'borrowed' for the Porter Tunnel). Though it is possible to have the illSTA tunnel section like that and make it change to merge with my tunnel, it is easier on me if all the tunnel sections are the same.

Although it might be possible to have the San Fierro style tunnel on the ramps that spiral down and then change the design to match my tunnel.

BenMillard
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#236

Posted 01 May 2006 - 08:55 PM Edited by Cerbera, 02 May 2006 - 11:00 AM.

I was thinking that the gap in the trees just to the South of the Marina access ramp would be good for the new freeway, could mean knocking some trees out of the Southern group but that's not a disaster. The Marina access ramp could join into the new freeway just with a dropped kerb, since it isn't a proper road.

A standard traffic lit T-junction could join the new freeway into the existing freeway.


Since the underground parking on illSTA will be available from the above ground parking, you're right that a box junction makes sense. The question where to put the access ramps to the underground parking, though! tounge.gif

The high central wall of the GTA3 system made it less fun (imho) since you can't swap sides to evade cops or do slaloms between the pillars. Maybe you could use the SF style until the junction where the illSTA tunnel joins the Port Orchid tunnels?


(EDIT) Fourth draft of illSTA:
user posted image
768 x 1024, 107kB.

Dark green lines are for underground roads/car park. Purple arrows indicate direction of car park ramps. These ramps stack up on top of each other. Each ramp drops by half a storey. The underground car park is split into a North and South section, with the North section offset half a storey below the South.

The box junction on illSTA will use traffic lights.

JasonB
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#237

Posted 02 May 2006 - 11:57 AM

I think that design could be a winner. I don't see any obvious flaws in the design, the box junction should end traffic congestion, the carpark entrances are intelligently placed and the tunnel spiral is accomplishable.

QUOTE
The high central wall of the GTA3 system made it less fun (imho) since you can't swap sides to evade cops or do slaloms between the pillars. Maybe you could use the SF style until the junction where the illSTA tunnel joins the Port Orchid tunnels?

We agreed on the SF style tunnel for the spiral and then merge it into my more Porter Tunnel themed tunnel correct? Also like I also said on MSN the divider isn't nearly as high as the GTA3 one, so driving across it should be any worse than a high curb hopefully smile.gif

BenMillard
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#238

Posted 02 May 2006 - 06:54 PM Edited by Cerbera, 02 May 2006 - 06:56 PM.

Yes to all. The general layout seems sorted now. smile.gif

We aren't sure what the exact dimensions for illSTA will be. For the width, its determined by the things it has to contain:
  1. West wall.
  2. Gap (outer wall needs to be thick as it's keeping the sea out of the tunnel).
  3. West freeway (SF dimensions).
  4. Gap (needs to be thick as this supports island surface, floors of car park, etc).
  5. West wall of underground car park.
  6. Single bank of 4.5m parking spaces (MISA cars are correctly proportioned).
  7. 6m to 8m access road (in line with ramps).
  8. Twin bank of 4.5 parking spaces (island centre).
  9. 6m to 8m access road (in line with ramps).
  10. Single bank of 4.5m parking spaces.
  11. East wall of underground car park.
  12. Gap.
  13. East freeway (SF dimensions).
  14. Gap.
  15. East wall.
That should give you enough wiggle room to style it as you wish while keeping the dimensions reasonable. As for the length, no longer than the draft shows because filling it with buildings and detailing will take too long. That draft is probably too long, so it's your call. The curved ends should be equal radius the whole way round so the spiral is easier to drive.

Here's an updated draft for the illCOM-illSTA freeway bridge:
user posted image
1024 x 768, 66kB.

The bouy with the coordinates written next to it is, very roughly, the center of the illSTA box junction. If you can get cooperation from the owner of the lot just South of the Marina, you could run the illCOM-illSTA bridge from the T-junction for the two lane road, making it a box junction. If you can't, then the position in this picture seems to fit well between that junction and the Marina access ramp.

steve-m
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#239

Posted 14 May 2006 - 02:04 PM

There seems to be some inconsistency regarding track shadows. No idea if this has been discussed before, couldn't find anything. The bridge templates have them pointing to the center, so I assume this is official? Might be unrealistic, but much more compatible since track segments can be rotated.

user posted image

BenMillard
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#240

Posted 14 May 2006 - 04:09 PM Edited by Cerbera, 14 May 2006 - 04:13 PM.

If that's the texture used in the 3D draft, it was just a temporary style. The actual railway tracks will be 3D like in GTASA. I'm not sure what texture they will be using because we havn't discussed it. The current style seems alright as long as the rails are 3D but I don't know what JB thinks on this.




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