Quantcast

Jump to content

» «
Photo

[Official] Myriad Islands Train

371 replies to this topic
mickarrow
  • mickarrow

    ---

  • Members
  • Joined: 04 Feb 2004

#151

Posted 16 February 2006 - 03:48 PM Edited by mickarrow, 16 February 2006 - 03:52 PM.

About:

1. icon14.gif

2. I completely forgot about the roads on Black Mesa. catspider.gif

3. Will the causeway still be attached to the existing land? 'Cause from what I've seen, causeways are generally not so high above ground. Or maybe I misunderstood you.

4. If you're looking for a brick texture that doesn't go funky from a distant, there's a nice one used on the walls of the parking lot of the LV airport, wich could work really well on such a structure. If you want a home-made one, the trick is to go easy on the contrast.

5. Yeah I know. smile.gif

JasonB
  • JasonB

    GTA-SA/GTA-VC/GTA3 Modder Extraordinaire

  • Members
  • Joined: 24 Aug 2002

#152

Posted 18 February 2006 - 10:30 AM

To help convey my ideas on the track sections that go over the sea, I have made a mock section of track.

Basically what I'm thinking is two large concrete pillars that go up to connect with the track deck, which is supported underneath by truss sections. Which you should be able to see in the renders:

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

Of course, since this is just a basic mock up, it is lacking proper textures and detail, but it should give you the gist of what I'm on about. Also incase you want to know, the height of the top of the deck to the water is 25m.

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

    aka Cerbera

  • Members
  • Joined: 22 Jun 2002

#153

Posted 18 February 2006 - 11:01 AM Edited by Cerbera, 18 February 2006 - 12:14 PM.

Hey, that's a great start JB. smile.gif

Some improvements I would suggest for the next mockup:-
  1. There should be a bit more detail where the pillars come into the deck. Could just have a big concrete beam filling the gap between the bottom of the deck and the top of the pillars; the height of the metal frame. You could round the ends of its bottom edge to make it suit the pillars, so it would actually start a little below the frame.
  2. There shouldn't be a sheet of metalwork fixed underneath the frame, it's just making the spans heavier. The framework should all be vertical, making a sort of grid under the deck. That way all the metal is carrying some weight, as well as bracing the structure for the curves.
  3. Maybe have one or two small bracing pieces between the two pillars? They look a bit fragile being seperated for such a height.
  4. How about moving the pillars to be directly beneath the centre of each railway track? That would reduce twisting forces from the weight of trains passing over the deck. It would also allow some simple shaping at the ends of the concrete support beam to go from the curve of the pillar to the bottom edge of the frame?
Mickarrow:-

3. Oh yeah, I forgot how high the railway deck would be! The causeway would have to be just a few metres above sea level, with the bridge structure on top of it. That would leave enough space for boats to jump through the gap. Would also make an interesting strip of land for secret missions, evading police and stuff like that.

4. If we use brick arches on illURB, the texturer can look into that. It will probably be illspirit making the Northern route, so he'll be sure it doesn't get too pixelated at distance.

Thanks for your continued feedback. Everyone is welcome to contribute ideas!


(EDIT) There's a pretty well proportioned bridge between San Fierro and Las Venturas. Here's a Vortex placed next to one of its pillars:
user posted image
800 x 600, 43.6kB.

Underwater it shows some nice detail where the pillars are dug into the sea bed:
user posted image
800 x 600, 36.1kB.

We don't really need this level of detail, though. Properly modeling the sea bed would be a huge amount of work which wouldn't get used much.

AleXXX
  • AleXXX

    (-:-)

  • Members
  • Joined: 19 Apr 2004

#154

Posted 18 February 2006 - 02:57 PM

JasonB,
Not bad. You use for a metal bridge section texture or it 3d-model?

JasonB
  • JasonB

    GTA-SA/GTA-VC/GTA3 Modder Extraordinaire

  • Members
  • Joined: 24 Aug 2002

#155

Posted 19 February 2006 - 02:33 AM

I have refined my bridge design concept and have some more renders:

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

@Cerb, I'm pretty sure I modified the bridge to match the improvements you suggested.

So far, the entire 200m section of track, the face count comes to 382.

@Alex:
I'm using a metal section texture with an alpha map, modelling each part would be a major poly-waste.

wauzie
  • wauzie

    GTI + MI

  • Members
  • Joined: 12 Mar 2005

#156

Posted 19 February 2006 - 10:38 AM

This looks great JB, maybe it will look even better when you model a 'fence' arount the track.

steve-m
  • steve-m

  • Members
  • Joined: 26 Jul 2002

#157

Posted 19 February 2006 - 02:00 PM

QUOTE (JasonB @ Feb 19 2006, 03:33)
user posted image

That bridge looks great. Very realistic, and enough detail. One minor thing though: increase the z coords of the lower polys of the metal framework, so they don't overlap the concrete supports. Maybe leave a gap of 5 to 10 cm, should be enough.

@wauzie: Train bridges normally don't need a fence, since peds aren't allowed there. And if the train derails, a normal fence wouldn't help anyway.

@Cerb: Don't look at SA's bridges for inspiration. Most of them were modelled very quickly, and not only are they lacking details and realism, some of them even have flaws.

BTW, more than a year ago, that bridge I wanted to model for Myriad was the main reason I made the MapViewer - so I could look at SA's bridges for ideas. wink.gif

AleXXX
  • AleXXX

    (-:-)

  • Members
  • Joined: 19 Apr 2004

#158

Posted 19 February 2006 - 04:59 PM

Yeah, nice bridge - don't hard modelling, but looks well!

locO G
  • locO G

    LocO by name... But keeping an even keel.

  • Members
  • Joined: 28 Oct 2005

#159

Posted 19 February 2006 - 08:39 PM

Great looking work sir.

I think that there would be railings along the bridge for health and safety reasons (track inspection/maintenance).

Lets get those trains rolling!

Mark
  • Mark

    Jesus hates you.

  • Zaibatsu
  • Joined: 15 Aug 2002
  • United-Kingdom

#160

Posted 19 February 2006 - 11:57 PM

Plus for us to charge along in vehicles! That's one bit where I will sacrifice realism for fun tounge.gif - GTAuron

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

    aka Cerbera

  • Members
  • Joined: 22 Jun 2002

#161

Posted 21 February 2006 - 08:20 PM Edited by Cerbera, 22 February 2006 - 09:26 PM.

I agree with GTAuron that the railway deck should have a fence so it won't be as frustrating to drive along. Railway bridges have fences in reality to improve safety for maintenance crews, so it would be realistic. The fence should be very simple, probably just thin metal posts with alpha mapped railings. The collision mesh wouldn't include gaps for individual railings as that would add loads of polygons; could just have one face (two triangles) between each post.

The fence should be fairly low, at most one metre high. The collision file for it could be very simple, just a vertical face running the length of each railway section. Making thin collisions for the wire and the posts would add a lot of polygons and could make vehicles get stuck in them during collisions.

QUOTE (JasonB @ Feb 19 2006, 03:33)
user posted image
This isn't quite what I meant. With this design, you've made the middle of the concrete deck thinner than at the edges. There isn't any supporting framework in the middle and the supporting framework is offset to the outer edges of the pillars. This would make the middle of the bridge very weak, creating shearing stresses through the deck. In reality, the spans would be likely to split down the middle along their length when a train went over them! tounge.gif

Also, the support beam doesn't go up to the edges, so they aren't supported and the outer portion of the frames don't fix into the beam directly. The beam slopes into where the frames start, which would make it difficult to fix the other parts of the frames securely. The slope doesn't include the middle of the beam, so the beam is narrower at the point where it as the least support from the pillars beneath.


Obviously GTASA isn't reality but the unbalanced design of these supports looks weird, doesn't it? I didn't explain my initial ideas very well. blush.gif I could make some sketches of what I mean, scan them in and upload them. If JB is on MSN at the same time as me, I could work with him to create another beam design combining my initial ideas and his new ones. Then we could compare the new beam with the current one and see which is better. There will be an awful lot of these supports and they'll be visible from most of MI, so we should make sure they look totally feasible.


(EDIT) An alternative to the dense, thin framework might be a few massive girders instead. This would save polygons but might look weird around the curves? Obviously the supports will be closer together during curves (especially the sharper curves) so it might be alright?

(EDIT2) I suck at drawing, so I've made a Lego model of what I mean instead. I'll take pictures tomorrow when there is some daylight, that way the faces will have better shading so the shape will be more obvious.

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

    aka Cerbera

  • Members
  • Joined: 22 Jun 2002

#162

Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:51 PM

I'm making this new post so that the photos of what I intended aren't lost amongst my critique of Jason's first preview design. Obviously a Lego model won't have the exact proportions the real 3D model should have. smile.gif

I think the best solution may be to use girders rather than metal frames, since metal frames will add a lot of polygons if done properly. Girders are the more modern construction method and create a cleaner looking structure, too.

Isometric view of the model:
user posted image
640 x 480, 44kB.

Viewing the cross section:
user posted image
640 x 480, 35kB.

Viewing the span of the bridge:
user posted image
640 x 480, 41kB.

The underneath of the bridge:
user posted image
640 x 480, 50kB.

The idea here boils down to a small number of things:-
  1. Concrete deck is same thickness throughout.
  2. Pillars are directly beneath the middle of each railway track.
  3. Support beam for deck (red) slopes to reach outer edges of deck. This is its only slope.
  4. A girder is placed directly beneath each rail, fused into the red support beam.
  5. Smaller braces are made between the girders (black) to spread out sideways loads on corners. Would also help spread out the unbalanced load of having a train running along one half of the bridge.
  6. There is a bracing beam (yellow) between each pair of pillars about halfway up from sea level.
  7. The bridge must be symmetrical and have no dangerous weak points.
The girders and braces could all be reinforced concrete, creating a very smooth looking bridge. I've been watching Discovery Channel documentaries about bridge construction and modern bridges are reinforced concrete throughout, so my metal frame idea might not be as good for MI?

steve-m
  • steve-m

  • Members
  • Joined: 26 Jul 2002

#163

Posted 23 February 2006 - 05:37 PM

Awesome work Cerb, looks like we have some new splash screens for MI... lol.gif

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

    aka Cerbera

  • Members
  • Joined: 22 Jun 2002

#164

Posted 28 February 2006 - 03:36 PM Edited by Cerbera, 28 February 2006 - 05:50 PM.

More interesting MSN snippets:
QUOTE (illspirit and Cerbera)
[14:47:04] Cerbera/Ben: hey ill, are you interested in getting active in MI again?
[14:47:23] illspirit: not especially tounge.gif
[14:47:47] Cerbera/Ben: but, it's like the best GTA project ever made, and you started it smile.gif
[14:48:08] Cerbera/Ben: other people are returning to work on it again, too
[14:48:17] Cerbera/Ben: despite this being the time of year when the GTA scene usually dies
[14:48:54] illspirit: I hate gta though tounge.gif
[14:49:04] Cerbera/Ben: aww sad.gif
[14:49:30] Cerbera/Ben: well, the Northern railway route and the prelighting is too much work and too complicated for pretty much anyone else to do...
[14:49:31] illspirit: or, umm, I hate R*, rather
[14:49:45] illspirit: oh, I'm still gonna do that stuff smile.gif
[14:49:51] Cerbera/Ben: oh, coolies biggrin.gif
As the route is now stable, it's just a case of figuring out the type of architecture to use. If illy has any preferences about what to use he can post some sample pics here.

That's not all, though:
QUOTE (illspirit @ JasonB and Cerbera)
[10:24:51] Cerbera/Ben: hi illy
[10:25:10] JasonB: Hi
[10:25:14] illspirit: lo
[10:25:26] Cerbera/Ben: the main point at the moment is confirming the dimensions of the rails, and how far apart they should be
[10:25:46] Cerbera/Ben: I think we might as well do them exactly like GTASA, that way we can use the default trains until custom ones are made
[10:26:16] illspirit: sounds like a plan
[10:26:40] Cerbera/Ben: killer smile.gif

[...]

[10:26:56] Cerbera/Ben: has the location of Necrosis changed since that beta he released in the train thread?
[10:27:23] illspirit: not that I know of
[10:27:36] illspirit: I don't see why it would either
[10:27:43] Cerbera/Ben: excellent
So yeah, there's plenty going on with the construction of the railway. It's just hasn't made it's way to this forum topic previously.

(EDIT) Not only but also:
QUOTE (JasonB)
[10:07:25] Cerbera/Ben: hi JB, how are the railway bridge mockups going?
[10:08:10] JasonB: I was going to make a mockup of your lego design yesterday, but it slipped my mind, it's getting late now so I'll do it tomorrow.
[10:08:53] Cerbera/Ben: it seems to me that you are very inactive, despite what you promised when you volunteered to do this stretch of the railway
[10:09:45] JasonB: I've been pretty busy lately, with school stuff. I don't have anything to do for the next few days though, so I should be able to get quite a bit of work done.
[10:09:53] Cerbera/Ben: neato smile.gif
So, that's some progress which will make it's way onto the forums. wink.gif

And this just in:
QUOTE (illspirit)
[17:10:48] Cerbera/Ben: [how about] having an artificial ridge running a moderate distance South from the South East corner of illURB
[17:10:51] Cerbera/Ben:[/b] below the railway
[17:11:13] Cerbera/Ben: like an artificial spit, a coastal defence against the erosion of the beach
[17:22:28] illspirit: yea
[17:22:50] Cerbera/Ben: that's something you're interested in making, then?
[17:23:31] illspirit: yea
[17:23:51] illspirit: it'll make the run-up to the island a lot easier to model tounge.gif
[...]
[17:25:32] Cerbera/Ben: I was thinking the ridge would only be a few meteres above sea level...which will look substantial but won't fill the gap
[17:31:24] illspirit: part of it could
[17:31:37] illspirit: as in, extend the whole cliff down some
[...]
[17:37:24] Cerbera/Ben: then have it end and the sea defence take over
[17:40:27] Cerbera/Ben: where the defence ends, the swingbridge could start, and then illSTA could start the other side of that
[17:40:48] Cerbera/Ben: that way there won't be a random swingbridge in the middle of the sea, it'll have some land either side
[17:45:27] illspirit: ya
Should be a pretty cool feature. It will make the South East illURB beach look a lot less exposed to the ocean, too.

Gforce
  • Gforce

    "Segregate and Rearrange" "The Hills"

  • Members
  • Joined: 17 Sep 2003
  • United-Kingdom

#165

Posted 28 February 2006 - 03:53 PM

QUOTE (Cerbera @ Feb 28 2006, 15:36)


[10:26:56] Cerbera/Ben: has the location of Necrosis changed since that beta he released in the train thread?
[10:27:23] illspirit: not that I know of
[10:27:36] illspirit: I don't see why it would either
[10:27:43] Cerbera/Ben: excellent


did i really miss a beta release of Necrosis ? ............... Damm it!!

Mark
  • Mark

    Jesus hates you.

  • Zaibatsu
  • Joined: 15 Aug 2002
  • United-Kingdom

#166

Posted 28 February 2006 - 03:57 PM

Sounds good, and btw you might want to remove the bit about JasonBs psp wink.gif - GTAuron

Knife
  • Knife

    Tits.

  • Zaibatsu
  • Joined: 11 Jul 2004
  • None

#167

Posted 28 February 2006 - 04:00 PM

QUOTE (Gforce @ Feb 28 2006, 15:53)
QUOTE (Cerbera @ Feb 28 2006, 15:36)


[10:26:56] Cerbera/Ben: has the location of Necrosis changed since that beta he released in the train thread?
[10:27:23] illspirit: not that I know of
[10:27:36] illspirit: I don't see why it would either
[10:27:43] Cerbera/Ben: excellent


did i really miss a beta release of Necrosis ? ............... Damm it!!

It was a little part of railway biggrin.gif

Gforce
  • Gforce

    "Segregate and Rearrange" "The Hills"

  • Members
  • Joined: 17 Sep 2003
  • United-Kingdom

#168

Posted 28 February 2006 - 04:21 PM

QUOTE (Knife @ Feb 28 2006, 16:00)
QUOTE (Gforce @ Feb 28 2006, 15:53)
QUOTE (Cerbera @ Feb 28 2006, 15:36)


[10:26:56] Cerbera/Ben: has the location of Necrosis changed since that beta he released in the train thread?
[10:27:23] illspirit: not that I know of
[10:27:36] illspirit: I don't see why it would either
[10:27:43] Cerbera/Ben: excellent


did i really miss a beta release of Necrosis ? ............... Damm it!!

It was a little part of railway biggrin.gif

oh well ................. sad.gif thx for the info

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

    aka Cerbera

  • Members
  • Joined: 22 Jun 2002

#169

Posted 28 February 2006 - 04:24 PM Edited by Cerbera, 28 February 2006 - 05:54 PM.

Gforce:
user posted image

It was the third result. You might have to press the "Go" button of your browser after the page has completed because the images will have bumped the correct message down the page. smile.gif

The download link is at the bottom of that message. It wasn't a proper beta, just some basic roads and his draft railway sections.

Gforce
  • Gforce

    "Segregate and Rearrange" "The Hills"

  • Members
  • Joined: 17 Sep 2003
  • United-Kingdom

#170

Posted 28 February 2006 - 04:49 PM

@Cerbera: thanks i got it now smile.gif

JasonB
  • JasonB

    GTA-SA/GTA-VC/GTA3 Modder Extraordinaire

  • Members
  • Joined: 24 Aug 2002

#171

Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:43 AM

I made another mock bridge based on Cerbs design.

user posted image

user posted image

Discuss

Cran.
  • Cran.

    910 reprisent

  • Members
  • Joined: 20 Apr 2004

#172

Posted 01 March 2006 - 08:33 AM

Looks great, i'd imagine that should be very close to the final version smile.gif

JasonB
  • JasonB

    GTA-SA/GTA-VC/GTA3 Modder Extraordinaire

  • Members
  • Joined: 24 Aug 2002

#173

Posted 01 March 2006 - 09:42 AM Edited by JasonB, 01 March 2006 - 10:15 AM.

If the public approves, the design will probably stay as this, I'll just get some better textures and map the concrete sections properly. The only thing I don't really like is the lack of metal framework in this design, but it doesn't matter though.

Edit:
QUOTE
Sounds good, and btw you might want to remove the bit about JasonBs psp wink.gif - GTAuron

Blasphemy!

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

    aka Cerbera

  • Members
  • Joined: 22 Jun 2002

#174

Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:21 AM Edited by Cerbera, 01 March 2006 - 11:17 AM.

The new mockup is much closer to what I had in mind, looks much better balanced. I think the girders should be a bit taller since this is a railway bridge with very long spans. Perhaps even twice as tall as in the picture.

I've been thinking about the shape of the pillars at and just beneath the surface of the sea. The current design would have a tendancy to catch currents like a sail due to the concave shape the the main faces. Perhaps having the two pillars merge into one large, oval pillar would make more sense? That way it wouldn't catch currents so badly, plus it would be stronger.

(EDIT) After discussing the design in more detail, JB has come up with this:
user posted image

I think this looks awesome! The flat faces with blade-like edges makes it look like a sculpture, like modern architecture. I havn't seen if he has changed the height of the girders but this design looks like it could be a winner. cool.gif

(EDIT2) Oh, I've found a real world version of the freeway bridge between illRES and illURB:
user posted image
Source: Mark Ketchum's Bridge Engineering Page.

A really simple fence like this has is all the railway would require.

Cran.
  • Cran.

    910 reprisent

  • Members
  • Joined: 20 Apr 2004

#175

Posted 01 March 2006 - 12:07 PM

Actually, that would look pretty damn good from illRES to illURB smile.gif So, I guess the railway will be completed before illnorth is split up?

Mark
  • Mark

    Jesus hates you.

  • Zaibatsu
  • Joined: 15 Aug 2002
  • United-Kingdom

#176

Posted 01 March 2006 - 01:51 PM

Aye it's needed for pre-lighting smile.gif - GTAuron

AleXXX
  • AleXXX

    (-:-)

  • Members
  • Joined: 19 Apr 2004

#177

Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:59 PM

Nice bridge, Jason/Cerb.
Somebody can give me light sources (i need it for LOT).

BenMillard
  • BenMillard

    aka Cerbera

  • Members
  • Joined: 22 Jun 2002

#178

Posted 03 March 2006 - 06:21 PM

The lighting solution for GTASA hasn't been decided yet. I talked to illspirit about it a couple of weeks ago, he said it involves radiosity solutions and a load of other stuff I've never heard of. Also, the settings required to make the lighting look good in the GTASA graphics engine are not known. It takes a long time to calculate the light settings (illspirit said it was about 40 hours for a complete test), so the settings won't be known until he finds some which work.

I havn't spoken to JB since the last time he posted, so I'm not sure whether he's tried making the bridge girders any beefier. We were also thinking about having the underwater pillar taper outwards as it went down towards the sea bed, like real bridge pillars do. Would make it look less flimsy when you are swimming around it in SA.

RainingAcid
  • RainingAcid

    Hustler

  • Members
  • Joined: 28 Mar 2005

#179

Posted 09 March 2006 - 07:31 PM

So, what's the progress of this?

JasonB
  • JasonB

    GTA-SA/GTA-VC/GTA3 Modder Extraordinaire

  • Members
  • Joined: 24 Aug 2002

#180

Posted 10 March 2006 - 07:44 AM

As a final test of the current design, and to see if it should be the design that is used to span the ocean area between Necrosis and the northern islands, Cerb and I decided that a curved mock section should be made. I did hope for this to be done 2 nights ago, but school work got the best of me. Sorry folks, but here it is (the texturing is lousy yes, so don't point it out - its only a mock version):
user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

If theres no problems or complaints, I move that this become the design that is used. Hooray!




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users