[Official] Myriad Islands Train
Posted 28 January 2006 - 09:48 AM
Posted 28 January 2006 - 04:01 PM
And yeah, with any luck it will be possible for railway route into and out of the dockland station to be contained on JB's lots alone. Are we thinking of a ground level route across it (like San Fierro in GTASA) or an overhead system (like Portland in GTA3)? Ground level would be better for the railway to get under the bridge from illCOM to Port Orchid. However, an overhead system would allow taller boats to get under all parts of the railway, which is better, but will require sturdier architecture (and therefore more work and polygons).
Posted 28 January 2006 - 04:47 PM
I say overground train will look cooler, and allowing big boats through would be more beneficial as to not hinder the players movement about the game as much. For example those pipes in staunton in GTA3 pissed me off majorly..would've been nice to drive a boat up to the dam. - GTAuron
Posted 29 January 2006 - 03:39 AM
The rail at my dockland is going to have to be over-head, it's unavoidable. To have it ground level would mean that I would have to start the entire lot again. Also, having an overhead train looks cool, in my opinion, with the added benefit of no insane height changes that were present in GTA3.
To that end I have shuffled and changed parts of the design of the docks, and I believe this would be a viable route for the train to pass through my docks:
*Note: The untextured white area is the land mass of Little Tokyo
It can easily avoid Little Tokyo and shouldn't go across the land of Alexs lot (although if he inists on making an island and the connecting bridge it could be a problem) but we need his input to make sure it doesn't happen.
Also, once again the untextured green area is the area allocated to the train station and platform (the platform is the area on the actual docklands, and the green area between the platform and the larger green area is a walkway suspended in the air.
Also, since the bridge to Port Orchid is quite a distance above sea level, so there shouldn't be any trouble getting the track under it.
Also, since illSTA will connect onto illcom, where will the bridge be?
Edited by JasonB, 29 January 2006 - 03:42 AM.
Posted 29 January 2006 - 03:53 AM
Posted 29 January 2006 - 09:35 AM
Posted 29 January 2006 - 01:08 PM
Aha! If there is gonna be one, why not take c9_r6 and c10_r6? I won c9_r6 and I'm happy to give it up for a bridge, and I haven't seen Blatent anywhere, so I think that lot can be stolen .
Hell if you make a bridge there but don't want the rest of the land I could build some apartments round it (i got a few on my HD, and that section is allocated for apartments). - GTAuron
Posted 30 January 2006 - 04:24 PM
|Oh no, what the hell is that bridge doing there?!! Nobody told me there was a bridge from the south of illCOM!!|
I am tired to wait for MI islands for SA (GT-1's version isn't official). Moreover, doesn't work LOT Request.
To not lose time, I've decided to make the new island. Especially, all south is free. While early to speak about my island, as it in initial stage of development. If you don't like it, i'll do separate map mod for SA. When the roads will be ready, i'll talk with illy about it.
Posted 30 January 2006 - 05:02 PM
Posted 30 January 2006 - 09:52 PM
If you want to create new land, ask the community by creating a topic. Mickarrow's island topic is a good example of this.
GTAuron, I had a look at where those lots are and it would be great if we can use them. If illcom_c9_r6 is officially yours, and if the owner of illcom_c10_r6 allows it, that would be a fine location for the bridge between illCOM and illSTA. I designed illSTA so that it could be moved North or South along the railway and a bridge could connect from the West at almost any angle. We'll need a better idea of what is there (if anything) before we can plan the bridge. Since there is so much flexibility with illSTA, we don't need to figure it out right now.
Jason, that draft route through your docks seems fine to me. The reason I suggested a ground-level railway is so the sea sections won't need to be extremely high above sea level. At the moment that section is running at +20 units on the Z axis, giving a fair clearence above the sea whilst being roughly in line with the ground level of illCOM. However, the railway on Necrosis is at +25 units on the Z axis, so perhaps more sea clearance (have it at 25 units) would be better?
I am worried that a curving railway with too much clearance above the sea will look a bit flimsy. If we can get the architecture right it could turn out fine, although that's a big "if".
Edited by Cerbera, 31 January 2006 - 01:28 PM.
Posted 01 February 2006 - 06:16 PM
|There is no need to create more islands because illRES and illURB are huge.|
That Myriad be Myriad, it need MANY islands.
Posted 01 February 2006 - 08:09 PM
(EDIT) I've been testing how different deck heights for the railway bridge would look by copying the parts of Steve-M's bridge between illCOM and illURB. It looks like placing the deck at 25 units on the Z axis will allow a good range of boats underneath without appearing silly:
800 x 600, 28.8kB.
This is high enough to make it take an overhead route for Jason's docks in the South East of illCOM, although there will only be a few metres clearence. Access roads can be dug down into cuttings to get more clearence beneath the railway bridge, which is sometimes done in reality.
So yeah, it looks like 25z will be the normal position of the deck from Necrosis to illCOM and on to the start of illURB. I'll update the 3D draft tomorrow and probably make it available to download.
(EDIT2) I've found some great pictures of the type of bridge I've been basing my ideas on. It's the Tay River Bridge in the North of Scotland. This shows a long, high railway bridge across a river where it widens towards the sea. It uses pillars to carry a girder frame with triangular bracing, on which the deck of the bridge sits. The bridge is curved at one end, showing that this sort of thing does happen.
The central section of the bridge inverts the structure, using a metal arch framework above the deck to allow taller boats to get through. This method requires a lot more metal and cannot be used on curves. Because of this, most of the MI bridges would have the girders underneath. There would be the occassional section or two which used the arch system so that taller boats don't have to go miles to find a place where they can cross underneath.
I don't think the MI bridges should look so dirty and old fashioned, though. The pillars should be a clean, geometric shape in concrete. The girders should be painted, either a rusty red like the Golden Gate Bridge or perhaps a neutral blue. I think the same style could be used all the way from Necrosis to illCOM and on to illURB.
(EDIT2) I have now made the Myriad Islands 3D Draft v1 available for download. It includes three DFF files, one TXD which should be added into your GTAVC IMG. There is also a "railway" folder which contains one IDE and one IPL which should be added to your "...\gtavc\data\maps\" folder. The DFFs and TXD were made by illspirit.
The pieces will not work in game, so use a map editor to view them. I recommend Tony's Map Editor for GTA3/VC/SA. It's what I've been using to create the route and although it's still in development it is already a very functional viewer and editor. Be sure to leave feedback in his topic if you have and criticisms, compliments, requests or suggestions for it.
You can simply comment out the reference to the railway IPL in order to play MI in GTAVC without the railway crashing the game.
Edited by Cerbera, 02 February 2006 - 04:03 PM.
Posted 03 February 2006 - 04:06 PM
Having seen yours 3d railway draft, i has found that distance from my bridge (while only road) up to rails on an axis Z = 9,5. (the bridge will pass under rails). Height of the CJ about 2. My bridge does not prevent rails!
You will use Spoony's railways? If no, I can help with modeling a rail.
Posted 03 February 2006 - 05:11 PM
I spose with a bridge structure and lamp posts on the lower bridge, and a bridge structure on the railway...hmm...smaller gap, but playable. Not to mention pillars ain't been taken into consideration.
And the number 1 question, will it look stupid? - GTAuron
Posted 08 February 2006 - 06:26 AM
I am making this draft publically available so that any lot owners can check to see if anything they have built or planned to build will be interfeered with. The railway won't be altered to accomodate AleXXX's bridge because creating more island when we've got about two square miles of it completely unused is madness.
(This post might not make any sense because it's 0625 and I didn't sleep last night.)
Posted 08 February 2006 - 05:19 PM
I don't argue - you in GTA-modding longer than I, and not to me decide destiny of a new island for MI. Likely is ridiculous - " Russian guy to nobody known wants to make island for such project ". But you give reason it by emptiness of other islands, and not the fact, that I'll do for Illnorth same, that would make for my island. Where you hurry? We don't make new game - this is amateur TC modification. Want, that Ukrainian bad boys began to earn the large money on sale of "GTA: Myriad Islands" illegal copy?
I've edited a little your ways, that they were compatible to the bridge. I have lifted the bridge on +5 (now it is 20,5). The
rails are reduced with 25 down to 13. I hope, so will approach.
Posted 09 February 2006 - 01:01 AM
Later today I'll export test sections of my docks and bridge to my island to see how well it goes with the train draft. If I think everything is where it is, it should go smoothly
Posted 09 February 2006 - 05:16 PM
The rails will be pass through a massive bridge design. It will not prevent any LOT, and will looks quite realistic.
Now bridge is displaced on former height (15.5). I've made the preview-version (bad rails texturing and sharp corners).
And please, comment.
Posted 09 February 2006 - 06:45 PM
 : I see it goes slightly upwards here before entering Black Mesa. Why not keeping it the same height and make it turn upwards in the tunnel under Black Mesa? That way the track doesn't have to bend like that just to enter the land, but could instead run on the side of the cliffs.
 : The track enters Illres at ground level here so it crosses the road. No problem with that, but it's really close to a T-section. Are you planning to integrate it into the T-section (in that case, how?) or adjust it so the track doesn't run so close to it?
 : This is not so much a technical comment, but more a thought about the atmosphere concerning the zonal layout of MI. I know the track must pass around illsub, but does it have to pass so closely by an island that's supposed to be high class/residential. I think it'll kinda spoil the view the mansion-owners would have . (Just a shot, but can't you run it under Illcom instead, make an exit at the southern point of illcom and continue the way it is, passing JB's lot?)
While looking at the screenshot, I wondered if there were allready decisions made about the placing of stations?
Edited by mickarrow, 09 February 2006 - 06:56 PM.
Posted 10 February 2006 - 11:58 AM
Mickarrow, since you've very helpfully numbered your questions and given a visual plan I'll start with you. Firstly, the 3D draft differs slightly to the 2D draft in a few details, so you might want to have a fly around it in a map editor if you havn't already.
Responses to your questions:-
- The railway rises along the face of the illURB cliff so that trains won't become hidden as soon as they reach the island. It makes for a nicer view when approaching Black Mesa and allows some fancy support structures to be modelled as the railway goes through cuttings and spans a small bay.
- The railway will sort of be included in the intersection. Basically, the "stop" line for the northbound traffic will be the southern edge of the railway. If the traffic light objects affect vehicle paths in the same way as they do in GTAVC, this will work fine.
- In the 3D draft there is quite a bit of space between illSUB and the railway. JB and I intend the architecture of the railway to look fairly nice, so it shouldn't be an eyesore for the illSUB residents.
The illSTA island is just a big station, really, which JasonB has volunteered to make. It is probable that stations will be given to authors like a normal lot would be. Obviously we can't let everyone with a property near the railway to build a station. Only a small number of modellers will get to build a station. It is easy to fit a station into any section of track, so we can decide thier locations at a later date.
AleXXX, we cannot change the height of the railway; the height cannot be changed while it crosses the sea to get to Necrosis. If you want to make a bridge which cross the railway route you will have to make your bridge fit the railway. Are your changes to the design a joke? You've put a sharply kinked piece of railway in the route.
I quite like the idea of Myriad Islands being completed before the end of this century. If people keep adding new islands when most of the official land hasn't even been used, the project will never be completed. What would be the point of that? By using the official land, we can fill it up before we die of old age. New islands could be added after the official ones have been filled up.
I've been discussing the architecture for the railway route over the sea with JasonB. We are thinking that the Tay Bridge is a bit too old and shabby. The basic construction method of the railway supported on a metal frame (deck) which is then supported by big pillars will work nicely, but it needs a nicer style. The Forth Bridge has high pillars with nicer framework at either end (ignore the massive stuff in the middle).
The panorama of the Forth Bridge shows the big towers at each end of the main structure; these are the size we think the MI railway would use. A shot from under the deck shows the sort of framework it uses. Looking down the length of the bridge you can see that even the "small" pillars are pretty big, so this design looks like it could work well. We would use clean concrete instead of old stone, though.
Edited by Cerbera, 12 February 2006 - 09:02 AM.
Posted 10 February 2006 - 06:22 PM
|AleXXX, we cannot change the height of the railway; the height cannot be changed while it crosses the sea to get to Necrosis. If you want to make a bridge which cross the railway route you will have to make your bridge fit the railway. Are your changes to the design a joke? You've put a sharply kinked piece of railway in the route.|
I hadn't enough time, and I made it for 5 minutes, therefore much made crookedly. Without change of yours Railway plan fail to create the realistic bridge (your ways pass practically on a diagonal through the bridge). Certainly it is possible, to create the underwater tunnel, whether but it will be good?
|I quite like the idea of Myriad Islands being completed before the end of this century. If people keep adding new islands when most of the official land hasn't even been used, the project will never be completed. What would be the point of that? By using the official land, we can fill it up before we die of old age. New islands could be added after the official ones have been filled up.|
The century is very much. In the future (I think) will be not how now. Very convenient 3d-modeling (4d? or 5d?) tools will be appear.
Also it isn't necessary to forget, that except for the island I develop illsub_c1_r2 (75-80% done), illcom_c2_r2 (90 % done), and when they'll leave, necessarily I'll take any LOT.
|In the 3D draft there is quite a bit of space between illSUB and the railway.|
Make the station on the island with mansions is silly (without insults).
The good bridge, but make it is difficultly.
Posted 10 February 2006 - 06:33 PM
Posted 11 February 2006 - 06:41 AM
If you insist on making this new island, it will not be supported by the railway. The railway will not be changed for unofficial land. If you want to make a bridge to an island in the South, you will have to wait until the railway is built. If you want to make a tunnel to an island in the South, you will have to wait until the railway is built.
When the railway is built you can see what space is available. You will not be allowed to alter the railway. The railway will not be altered to fit in with your unofficial island. You have ignored the fact that this is a community project, so the community will ignore you.
(EDIT) If you want to talk about your island any more, please make a new topic about it. Your island will not cause the railway to change, so it is irrelevant to this topic about the railway route.
Edited by Cerbera, 11 February 2006 - 08:52 AM.
Posted 11 February 2006 - 10:57 AM
|Your island is not necessary. It is a waste of time.|
Whether Jason's or REspawn's island is necessary to us?
Well, the development of the island is stopped (isn't closed). I'll reserve it to the best times. While I shall complete old LOT's and I shall take others. And please - do not select mine illcom_c1_r12!
All the best, AleXXX.
Posted 12 February 2006 - 07:26 AM
Respawn started his island when MI was still young, at the time it was only illcom and illsub. At the time most of Myriad has been snatched up, not leaving Respawn much working space. And plus Respawns island is more industrial, whereas illcom is medium commercial for the most part, so having separated sections of industry throughout commercial areas wouldn't make sense.
My island is a high density commercial/high-medium density residential area. Whilst illcom shares is also like this, my project started before the north islands were released, in fact they had barely started. illcom likely wouldn't have suited the size of many of my buildings and how I wanted to design the island. If I had reserved a large section of illcom and crammed my designs in there, it would be incongruous with the rest of the island.
But now new islands aren't necessary, there is still illcom/illsub to fill up, the northern islands and now GTI as well.
Posted 12 February 2006 - 09:29 AM
|QUOTE (E-mail from Cerbera)|
|Hi illspirit, Steve-M, Respawn and JasonB,|
JasonB and I think we have now got a stable 3D draft together for the Myriad Islands Railway. I released it in the thread for public viewing. It includes three DFF files and a TXD (all by illy) with an IDE and IPL (by me) which lets you view the route in a 3D map editor/viewer.
It will not work in-game, so you'll need to comment out the IDE and IPL references from the DAT to play in-game. Instructions are included in the readme.txt file if you need them (which you three probably won't!).
We are currently beginning design ideas for railway architecture based on the Tay Bridge and the ends of the Forth Bridge.
We think that pillars supporting a metal framework beneath the railway deck is the best option for the sea sections of the railway, but we havn't decided on the flyover sections. We also don't know what the exact dimensions of the rails will be; we assume they will be identical to GTASA so we can use the standard trains until new trains are made.
JB and I would like to ensure that the route is approved by all influential MI contributers before JB begins modelling the Necrosis-illCOM-illRES sections. I've tried to line it up with Necrosis from the beta Respawn released a while ago; if it doesn't line up with its final position we need to know! We would like to gather as much input and ideas from other MI contributers as possible in the design of the architecture.
If previous URLs havn't worked in your e-mail client, the thread is here:
Ben "Cerbera" Millard
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Posted 12 February 2006 - 10:38 AM
The Ukrainian railway bridge - not so difficult architecture, but looks well.
Edit: Also don't try to speak with Steve M. He has left GTA-modding (at least, he has written on steve-m.com)
Edited by AleXXX, 12 February 2006 - 10:49 AM.
Posted 12 February 2006 - 12:42 PM
Posted 12 February 2006 - 09:11 PM
I'm not doubting the architectural quality it will have, just the distance it has from the main land...
As for some bridge ideas, I'm gonna take the pic I posted before as a reference. I know the lay-out has slightly changed, but it'll give you an idea as to where I'm referring :
I think if the train near  was to go on the side of the cliffs instead of going on and off land, We could have an (imo) beatufull structure like this :
http://smokymountain...n on bridge.jpg
Once the track enters Black Mesa, I'd like to see it make an upside turn within the mountain, so when it leaves the mountain on the left side, the track will be higher off ground, and you'd be able to make something like this:
This way, the wide road that connects illurb with illres and wich you cross near Black Mesa, can run underneath the 'viaduct.
Once you go more and more towards Illres, you could steadily lower the above construction.
As for an overall solution for track 'above ground', apparently just plain boulders are a very popular solution, like in the link here:
That's it for now...
About the Tai bridge: I think this is a decent solution to overspan wide ranges over sea, but with the pillars not soooo close together. Of course they'd have to be still realistic close enough, but imo, if we go with the same amount of pillars as shown in the real-life pics, we'd have too many of them and it would look unrealistic. I was once explained the 'shrinkwrapped nature' of SA...this should be aimed for here too, I think.
Posted 14 February 2006 - 11:56 AM
1. I guess we may as well put more distance between the railway and illSUB. The river there is very wide so boats will still be able to travel around in there. I've adapted the route:
1024 x 768, 48.7kB.
There are a couple of slight kinks in it because the route is constructed from straight sections. When the curves actually get modelled by Jason, I'm sure he'll smooth them out so the curves change radius and direction more gracefully.
2. The height changes you are describing for illURB are already present. The railway can't gain too much height inside the tunnel or it won't be able to get beneath the road which comes down from Black Mesa. Take a closer look at the 3D draft around that area. Here's a screenie of the tunnel exit:
1024 x 768, 111kB.
I havn't set the rotation of these items to make the slope smooth because MEd wouldn't do it properly. I don't think it's a big enough problem to try and use one of the older mapper tools, since you can tell what the slope is from the changes in height.
3. That valley crossing bridge is a very old fashioned style. The route along the East coast of illURB does travel along the side of the cliff, so it will alternate between a cutting through the rock and more modern support structures. I would like it to be on an artificial causeway on the approach to illURB to add a bit of a feature to that big open section of water. It would be constructed like a coastal defence, with sloped sides, so there could even be a unique stunt bonus for fast boats to use it as a jump.
4. Some sort of a flyover is required for the central illURB section of railway and a brick viaduct could be a nice structure to use. It could have quite decorative brickwork since it is just over the road from the posh housing on the plateau. However, brick textures can look bad due to the size of pixels in normal gameplay. A lightly coloured concrete structure might work better, perhaps with some decorative lines painted on?
A set of flyovers and embankments is required for the southern section of illRES. This could be a more industrial style since it is going over the low cost housing close to Necrosis. A metal structure like the New York Subway (the style Portland's railway in GTA3 is based on) might be suitable here.
5. That overground solution is the general idea for the railway sections which travel over the sea. We will use a more decorative style, though, since big concrete blocks with orange metal panels is pretty ugly!
6. The pillars on the Tay Bridge are much closer together than we will use for the oversea sections, yes. I think spacing the pillars more like the ends of the Forth Bridge would work better, especially since that will save a lot of polygons and COL faces.
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