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[Official] Myriad Islands Train

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BenMillard
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#301

Posted 25 August 2006 - 09:00 PM

Sunken Junction
It's crazy to have exit ramps in the middle of a road. Even in GTAuron's example junction, the exit ramps are on the outside. You can see just by looking at his render how how messy it is to have walls in the road and cutouts under the passing lane. There's also the issue that we'll have a 4 lane freeway exiting onto one lane in either direction, causing a bottleneck. It's difficult to understand OrC's plan, but it looks even more overcomplicated and unrealistic.

If you (OrC and GTAuron) have MSN Messenger or a compatible IM client, I'd like to talk through the pros and cons of the different sunken junction designs. I've got mIRC if you prefer that, but I've forgotten how to use it! tounge.gif

Has anyone found a location where any sunken junction will fit? Maybe somewhere between the two illSUB bridge junctions?

New Option: Link with Snow Racer's Tunnel
Here's some good news:
QUOTE (Cerbera and Snow Racer)
[21:00:44] Cerbera/Ben: oh, will you be making that tunnel from illCOM to illURB after all?
[21:02:47] SR (Alan): yes
[21:04:03] Cerbera/Ben: how many lanes will it have?
[21:04:17] SR (Alan): well
[21:04:18] SR (Alan): 2
[21:04:26] Cerbera/Ben: could you make it 4?
[21:04:43] SR (Alan): yes
[21:04:55] Cerbera/Ben: cool, that means Port Orchid (JasonB's island) could link into it after it has gone to illSTA smile.gif
[21:05:17] Cerbera/Ben: nothing is confirmed yet, we are still thinking about how to link illSTA to illCOM
[21:05:20] Cerbera/Ben: but this gives us another option
This would avoid the need to alter any additional surface land since Snow Racer already owns a lot for his tunnel. It exits at an existing junction on the illCOM freeway, too. We'd then have a tunnel route from Port Orchid to illSTA and then to both illCOM and illURB (and the reverse).

New(ish) Option: Tunnel Exit on Unused Lot
It was suggested previously that we use an unused lot on illCOM for the link to illSTA. I've noticed that there's a suitable lot in the North, a couple of lots West from the bridge to illURB. The tunnel from Port Orchid would run past the north of illSTA, then would rise from the sea bed as it went under the North of illCOM. It would break onto the surface on the unused lot, and exit at a new junction on the illCOM 4-lane road.

JasonB doesn't want to take on a whole new lot, which makes sense since he already has so much on the go. However, if he builds the tunnel and the exit we could give the lot back to the MISA project for other people to fill with buildings, or parkland, or whatever.

Current Thoughts
The way I see it, we've got four options:
  1. Do a bridge over the Southern platform at Snow Racer's Marina.
  2. Develop the unused Northen lot for a tunnel to illSTA.
  3. Sink a length of the illCOM freeway to create a junction to a tunnel to illSTA.
  4. Link into Snow Racer's tunnel from illCOM to illURB using a tunnel from illSTA.
I think any of these are viable if we get the design right and get any required author permissions as long as JasonB is willing to make it. smile.gif

Diesel
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#302

Posted 25 August 2006 - 10:06 PM

Cerb,

you're overthinking things. It looks plausible, it'll be cool to drive through, it'll spice up the road network a bit. It's fine. smile.gif

Mark
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#303

Posted 25 August 2006 - 11:12 PM

@OrR: Hmm...I like the idea of having those looping bridge type things on the ground level, cool idea biggrin.gif See if I can't add it.

@Cerb: 4 lane freeway onto 1 lane road? You're making it sound worse than it is. It's 1 lane into 2 one way, and 2 into 1 the other. What's more, if there's a tunnel under illCOM, there could be 1 lane designated to going straight on, and the other to turn off onto the main illCOM freeway. Tunnel under illCOM or not, 2 lanes into 1 is a common occurance, especially on british roads (loads of traffic lights have 2 lanes that merge into 1).

Having the sudden disruption due to the walls is perfectly acceptable, if the road markings and road signs are plentiful to begin with. Plus, as DGT said, it'll make the freeway a hella lot more fun.

btw you can add me at [email protected] to MSN smile.gif .

OrR
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#304

Posted 26 August 2006 - 01:12 AM Edited by OrR, 26 August 2006 - 12:45 PM.

I'm stupid. Here is a MUCH better version:
user posted image
No traffic light, 4 lane tunnel, everybody can go from everywhere to everywhere. This can be really long because streets can join it at intersections as pictured. The two half-circle-things make it possible to change directions. Of course there'd need to be more space from the road comming up to ground level to the half circles than in my sketch, namely enough space to change lanes.
To simplify things a little, there probably should be one more connection that isn't pictured. The two south red lanes should be connected so that you can go straight through from east to west. This would not be necessary but very usefull for making the intersection react more dynamically to changes in traffic and to make it easier to correct a mistake if you've taken the wrong turn.

As you can see, this is taking more space than the usual 4 lane road because of the 5th lane. Well, there is a way around that, too. It's a little crazy but would probably be REALLY cool in game:
-Put the second lane from south on a bridge above everything else. (All the way from west to east in my picture.)
-Make the half circles connect to the southern most lane instead. This also gives them more space - great!
-Move the northern three lanes south so that the north most one goes straight and the other two move so that the southern most red lane is now below the bridged lane.
-Great! The intersection now takes no more space than the straight road would, it has full functionality and some amazing architecture, too! You can squeeze a funny pedestrian bridge into the middle if you are feeling even more adventurous. That would make it complete. It would start north of the street in the middle with two stairs from east and west bringing it up above the ground level. Now it would slowly descend on the way south to get under the bridged lane, only to descent between the bridged and the southern most lane by splitting east and west. Then there would be two bridges south to cross the southern most lane and then it would come down to ground level again going to east and west so that the two exits are quite a way apart. (Else two seperate exits wouldn't make much sense.) What a beautiful footbridge! lol.gif

Ok, I made another sketch since it's probably difficult to imagine what I'm talking about:
user posted image
I even included the footbridge! (Black, big blobs are where support pillars could be. The complicated intersection south is optional, of course. wink.gif )
Violet is the lane that is on a bridge. You have to imagine the lane north to it going directly below it but that looks like sh*t in a drawing. wink.gif
Another variant for beautification: The lane on the bridge could curve north a little while going through the intersection so that it's middle support pillar could rest on the triangle between the red lanes coming out of the tunnel. Now, that would look awesome, drive awesome and even make sense construction-wise. It could even descend to ground level there if the intersection is long enough, making it really easy for a footbridge to cross at that part. (And a long sunken intersection NEEDS a footbridge.)

One more thing: north/south/west/east are the directions in these pictures to distinguish them from up/down as in height. Of course they would be different if the intersection is rotated and put in Myriad.

If you want to chat, I'm [email protected] on MSN or 179047982 on ICQ.

BenMillard
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#305

Posted 27 August 2006 - 09:25 PM

I've been discussing the proposals via MSN so we can get through the details more quickly. I've spoken with Snow Racer, Steve-M and OrR today. I think we're all getting a better understanding of the problems involved and want to find a solution which will fit the style of MISA.

Mark
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#306

Posted 27 August 2006 - 11:58 PM

Indeed, I've had work for 2 days, followed by a family get together, thus I haven't been on at all this weekend. I've got me appendix out this Tuesday too, which will see me missing a few days out around here. Looks like i'm out of the "negotiations" tounge.gif .

BenMillard
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#307

Posted 29 August 2006 - 10:36 PM

After some very long conversations with OrR, we're both starting to think that linking the tunnel into the illCOM ringroad might not fit in with the overall traffic network; particularly the other tunnels. I've been talking with Respawn, JasonB and Snow Racer and we all agree that having at least some of these tunnels interconnect would be a good idea if we can can make it look alright in-game. Illspirit is OK with this as long as he doesn't have to make it. tounge.gif

I'm thinking that maybe the tunnel from Port Orchid could connect into Snow Racer's illCOM-illURB tunnel? It would use a conventionally shaped freeway interchange (realistic) but with tunnels rather than normal roads (fun).

The illSTA island could be connected directly to illCOM using a bridge over the Marina which would offer nice views of the marina and spice up the skyline there (fun?). It can have a diamond interchange (realistic) into the Port Orchid tunnel. The bridge and interchange can be linked by spiralling the illSTA road (fun) between the two levels.

In 2D, the routes would be something like this:
user posted image
1024 x 1024, 96kB.

I'm not exactly sure where Respawn's Necrosis-illRES tunnel will be going exactly but he'll leave a section for someone to connect another tunnel into it. That could be done if we use a more complex interchange in Snow Racer's tunnel.

I hope this design (or something like it) strikes a more popular balance between fun and realism. smile.gif I'll be going to a friend's house for a couple of days, so feel free to discuss and I'll catch up when I get back.

Mark
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#308

Posted 30 August 2006 - 11:15 PM

Nice idea, I like the plans. The only thing I spose I don't like about the bridge to illSTA from illCOM is that I feel it would be a bit restictive on the boat traffic in and out of the general area, but thinking about it, it would be really cool to have a bridge with an actual barrier at sea level, think of it like a storm protector. Of course, this would only be alright as long as the is most definately NO bridge from illSTA to Port Orchid. If there is, it would have to be one hella high bridge, all the way across. Or be a lift bridge, or whatever. It would be fun to have to go right round illSTA in order the reach the docks, thinking about it.

I'm willing to make something here, but if I am going to, plans will have to be finalised PDQ, cause as of end of september, I dunno how much free time I've got cause I start uni. Remember, I only use Zmod as well, and I can't guarantee I can get it in game on my larry tounge.gif .

If there's a tunnel from SRs lot, I feel it should be extended to go down to illSUB, then west towards Necrosis, under that, link up to the current tunnel there, then maybe pop up in the crater on illRES. Bit unrealistic to have such a huge-ass tunnel, but would be fun and cool, and give us more road to drive around tounge.gif

lord fido
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#309

Posted 31 August 2006 - 09:31 PM

QUOTE (GTAuron @ Aug 30 2006, 23:15)
Nice idea, I like the plans. The only thing I spose I don't like about the bridge to illSTA from illCOM is that I feel it would be a bit restictive on the boat traffic in and out of the general area, but thinking about it, it would be really cool to have a bridge with an actual barrier at sea level, think of it like a storm protector. Of course, this would only be alright as long as the is most definately NO bridge from illSTA to Port Orchid. If there is, it would have to be one hella high bridge, all the way across. Or be a lift bridge, or whatever. It would be fun to have to go right round illSTA in order the reach the docks, thinking about it.

I'm willing to make something here, but if I am going to, plans will have to be finalised PDQ, cause as of end of september, I dunno how much free time I've got cause I start uni. Remember, I only use Zmod as well, and I can't guarantee I can get it in game on my larry tounge.gif .

If there's a tunnel from SRs lot, I feel it should be extended to go down to illSUB, then west towards Necrosis, under that, link up to the current tunnel there, then maybe pop up in the crater on illRES. Bit unrealistic to have such a huge-ass tunnel, but would be fun and cool, and give us more road to drive around tounge.gif

Boats are under used on the GTA World.

I hope you guys use them more often in missions.

OrR
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#310

Posted 31 August 2006 - 11:58 PM

I think the Port Orchid - illCOM bridge is indeed planned as something really huge.
Since the illCOM - illSTA bridge is going to be an obstacle anyway, why not make it a dam? Maybe with a small bridge in the middle for small boats only.

Boats are underused, that's true. There should be easily accessible fast boats everywhere, to encourage their use, as well as huge ass ferrys that you can either use by paying for them or steal. Would those be possible to script? I've got no idea. biggrin.gif

Another thing underused in GTA SA are the bikes and they are also a great opportunity to justify the existence of illSTA, as I also mentioned above. In my opinion, there should be special bike lanes and bike ways as well as bike parking spaces added to illSTA, illCOM and also the other train stations and their surroundings. And a little crazy architectural idea: The idea of connecting from illSTA to the illCOM-PO bridge was abandoned because it seemed ugly and unrealistic. But how about adding only a bike bridge doing exactly that? I think a bike bridge could be added easily without interfering with the architecture of the main bridge, because it's so small. There would also be a special bike way on the bridge with one lane in either direction from PO to the illSTA connection at least but it would probably make sense to continue it to illCOM. Any other bike fans around? biggrin.gif

BenMillard
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#311

Posted 01 September 2006 - 09:03 PM

There won't be a bridge from illSTA to Port Orchid (PO) because there is a high suspension bridge from illCOM to PO. I've asked JasonB to try and smooth out the curves on the approach ramp, but it currently looks like this:
user posted image
1024 x 768, 57kB.

I don't think there is a bridge from PO to Grand Tani Islands (GTI). This means any tall boats can approach from two directions:
  1. From the ocean East of MISA, head West between the North coast of PO and the South coast GTI. Then go past the North of illSTA and continue to where you want.
  2. From the ocean South of MISA, head North between the East coast of illCOM and the West coast of PO. Go under the high illCOM-PO bridge and continue past the East coast of illSTA. Turn West to go around the North of illSTA and continue to where you want.
I've been toying with the idea of having a large-scale swingbridge attached to the North of illSTA to allow really tall stuff to get under the moderately high railway route. All depends on figuring out a design which won't make it look out of place, finding a modeller and getting its behaviour SCM'ed nicely.

Linking the Necrosis-illRES tunnel into Snow Racer's tunnel is something I'd like to organise. Maybe that could be made by you if it goes ahead, though? It will require good skills to merge that tunnel into Respawn's without the difference in authors making an obvious "seam" between them.


OrR, I don't think vehicle types can be limited on a path-by-path basis to just bicycles. The lanes would be deserted. I think a bike-only bridge high above a river connecting a high suspension bridge to an island will look very odd. It will be running alongside the railway for its whole length, descending from the bridge to the island by quite a lot.

Mark
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#312

Posted 01 September 2006 - 10:46 PM

@the PO - illCOM bridge: Why not move the illCOM side slightly to the right (south) and bend the bridge a little? A lot of bridges are bent, the dartford tunnel bridge being an example you might know of Cerb.

Well I'm up for connecting the tunnels if need be, but hell, planning will have to be quick, and i'd need a copy of both SRs lot and Necrosis in order to do so. Maybe it's not possible for me to accomplish in time, and I should do summin else.

In fact, who's making the illCOM-illSTA bridge, and illSTA for that matter? JasonB?

SeaNorris.
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#313

Posted 01 September 2006 - 11:54 PM

QUOTE (lord fido @ Aug 31 2006, 22:31)

Boats are under used on the GTA World.

I hope you guys use them more often in missions.

With this being Myriad Islands, I think boats will be used a lot more than the normal gta games.

BenMillard
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#314

Posted 02 September 2006 - 06:29 PM

GTAuron, it could some time before that connecting tunnel is planned. It depends on how Respawn and Snow Racer's tunnels turn out when they are made in 3D. smile.gif

I've been talking with Steve-M in great depth throughout today about illSTA. He describes it as a "a pretty hot design" and has helped figure out many of the specifics. We're currently planning the layout of the surface carpark in the South. I've come up with this:
user posted image
768 x 1024, 119kB.

Purple lines are traffic directions, bright green lines are edges of pavement. Dark green lines are edges of roads and parking areas underground. Bright blue lines are edges of major surfaces. The wierd shape in the South East is a set of four big spaces for busses, with waiting areas between them.

I think Steve is working on his own sketch.

steve-m
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#315

Posted 02 September 2006 - 09:31 PM

Yep, and here's mine: illsta.png (19 KB)

Southern entrance area only, proportions should be the same as on Cerb's sketch. The fuchsia bar is the ped entrance/exit, they have a short way to the taxi stands, and busses would be somewhere on that big parking lot. Could also put them where the text is now, and add some waiting areas there like on Cerb's. Lime green rectangles are the track pillars, green circles are trees.

Mark
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#316

Posted 02 September 2006 - 10:49 PM

Now that's cool smile.gif Loving it. Is that main junction just gonna be a free-for all, or is it controlled with lights or whatever?

OrR
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#317

Posted 02 September 2006 - 11:25 PM

QUOTE (SeaNorris. @ Sep 1 2006, 23:54)
QUOTE (lord fido @ Aug 31 2006, 22:31)

Boats are under used on the GTA World.

I hope you guys use them more often in missions.

With this being Myriad Islands, I think boats will be used a lot more than the normal gta games.

Not if it's not planned for. Boats are slow, getting into and out of one takes effort, driving on water is boring... There need to be easy opportunities to get a fast boat everywhere, stunts, maybe small islands as obstacles or even special islands only reachable per boat. The bridges are an opportunity there, maybe small things could be added at the pillars. For example a hermit living there or something as cool as that. He could give you special boat missions.
Boats won't get attractive by themselves.

BenMillard
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#318

Posted 03 September 2006 - 10:40 PM Edited by Cerbera, 05 September 2006 - 02:52 PM.

After more talking with Steve-M and GTAuron, I've come up with an updated plan, with a cleared out background:
user posted image
768 x 1024, 19kB.

Dark grey is surface roads, light grey is underground roads. Dark red are support pillars, bright red is the outline of the railway bed. Hopefully the image speaks for itself, but basically it's just a tidier version of Steve's plan. smile.gif

(EDIT) Updated the illSTA plan to incorporate the ideas Steve and I had at 1am this morning. It seems to tick all the right boxes now, thanks to so many people contributing their ideas. "Don't you just love it when a plan comes together?" tounge.gif


(EDIT2) After talking with JasonB, I've updated the tunnel plan:
user posted image
1024 x 1024, 96kB.I need to talk to Respawn about the route for his tunnel and where the Directional T interchange for the connecting tunnel should link into it.

Mark
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#319

Posted 13 September 2006 - 02:21 AM

user posted image

Alright fer a train?

Snow Racer
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#320

Posted 13 September 2006 - 05:05 AM

it looks great

Cran.
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#321

Posted 13 September 2006 - 08:24 AM

Try it out with the SA trains, i'd be interested to see how it looks ingame smile.gif

Mark
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#322

Posted 13 September 2006 - 08:39 AM

Will do, once done lol. Lotsa sh*t to do yet smile.gif

BenMillard
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#323

Posted 13 September 2006 - 12:16 PM

The shape of it seems fine to me, although it maybe looks a bit British for an American city? Illspirit and I already have some ideas about the railway logo, which I've PM'ed you about now. There have been several train suggestions over the years; maybe now we can decide which one(s) will be used.


I've gone some bad news about the tunnels: it might not be possible to have underwater tunnels in GTASA. In GTA3 and GTAVC, the water physics only affected the surface. But in GTASA, the water physics extend all the way to the bottom of the game environment.

Steve-M thinks he remembers doing tests ages ago where the water physics didn't occur if you entered a water area well below its surface. It's like the water physics get dragged down with you if you enter from the surface, otherwise they don't apply. However, he thinks the visual effect of the water was still present.

We don't know if there is a cullzone of some sort to turn off the visual and physical effects. The absence of any underwater tunnels in GTASA might mean that there isn't, which means a proper tunnel system might not be possible. sad.gif

mickarrow
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#324

Posted 13 September 2006 - 02:15 PM Edited by mickarrow, 13 September 2006 - 02:36 PM.

Steve's right. Here are some screens I took when I was doing tests with the water.

A: CJ can walk under the water surface, but the minute he does, the physics catch up and he gets sucked to the surface, where he starts swimming.

B: CJ can walk under the water surface, but the distance between him and the surface is a bit bigger. He doesn't get sucked to the surface and can keep walking underneath it. The visual effect is still present. His health doesn't decrease while being under water.

user posted image user posted image



::EDIT::
I just did another test. I rocketmanned CJ all the way down (untill he was approxamitely at the border of where the screen fades to black) before I entered the ocean. Same result as in 'B' confused.gif .
I don't now what the distance between the MI ocean (Z = 0 ) and the bottom of the game is. But it's not enough for a cancelation of the physical effect of the water.

Mark
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#325

Posted 13 September 2006 - 03:07 PM

Spose only thing to try now is cull areas? I'd like to try, but I don't have a f*cking clue.

steve-m
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#326

Posted 14 September 2006 - 01:14 AM

QUOTE (mickarrow @ Sep 13 2006, 16:15)
But it's not enough for a cancelation of the physical effect of the water.

Erm, you mean visual effect, no? As long as the physics work, that's fine. I'm pretty sure there's a cull zone to get rid of the water visuals. And if not, there are other things to play with. Could try to set a different timecyc.dat environment manually (either per script or ipl entry), since the water is technically a special "weather".

mickarrow
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#327

Posted 14 September 2006 - 10:35 AM

oops, you're right.

Going underneath the ocean surface deep enough cancels the physical effect, but leaves the visual effect.

BenMillard
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#328

Posted 14 September 2006 - 12:35 PM

From timecyc.dat:
CODE
//////////// UNDERWATER
//Amb   Amb_Obj Dir   Sky top   Sky bot  SunCore  SunCorona SunSz SprSz SprBght Shdw LightShd PoleShd FarClp FogSt LightOnGround LowCloudsRGB BottomCloudRGB WaterRGBA   Alpha1 RGB1   Alpha2 RGB2  CloudAlpha
//Midnight
21 21 21 135 173 197 255 255 255 10 10 10 20 20 20 0 0 0 0 0 0 1.00 1.00 1.00 200 100 0 300.00 5.00 1.00 30 20 0 0 0 0 59 68 77 192 255 104 136 83 255 24 76 16 255 0 0
//5AM
21 21 21 135 173 197 255 255 255 10 10 10 20 20 20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.00 1.00 1.00 200 100 0 300.00 5.00 1.00 70 27 10 0 0 0 59 68 77 192 255 94 141 95 255 0 70 20 255 0 0
//6AM
21 21 21 135 173 197 255 255 255 10 10 10 20 20 20 0 0 0 0 0 0 3.40 0.90 0.90 200 100 0 300.00 5.00 0.90 100 34 25 0 0 0 62 72 77 192 255 124 174 110 255 0 64 20 255 0 100
//7AM
21 21 21 135 173 197 255 255 255 40 40 40 50 50 50 0 0 0 0 0 0 2.50 0.70 0.80 80 80 0 300.00 5.00 0.80 120 40 40 0 0 0 107 117 122 192 255 124 153 104 255 0 48 20 255 0 0
//Midday
21 21 21 186 186 186 255 255 255 80 80 80 70 70 70 0 0 0 0 0 0 1.00 0.50 0.70 80 50 120 300.00 5.00 0.70 120 100 100 0 0 0 141 141 140 255 255 124 143 109 255 0 51 24 255 0 0
//7PM
21 21 21 135 173 193 255 255 255 80 80 80 70 70 70 0 0 0 0 0 0 3.50 1.00 1.00 80 50 0 300.00 5.00 0.90 120 40 40 0 0 0 116 135 144 192 255 124 139 85 255 10 46 22 255 0 0
//8PM
21 21 21 167 198 223 255 255 255 40 40 40 70 70 70 0 0 0 0 0 0 2.00 1.00 1.00 80 80 0 300.00 5.00 1.00 120 40 40 0 0 0 132 176 189 192 255 63 124 99 255 0 87 20 255 0 0
//10PM
21 21 21 167 198 223 255 255 255 40 40 40 50 50 50 0 0 0 0 0 0 1.00 1.00 1.00 200 100 0 300.00 5.00 1.00 70 27 10 0 0 0 161 176 189 192 255 124 124 91 255 0 85 20 255 0 0
//
If we have the tunnels actually beneath the sea bed, maybe we could set a different weather type down there which didn't have water visuals? Then maybe we could end the water weather zone at the sea bed, so you'd still get proper water all the way down to the sea bed but you wouldn't get it in the tunnels?

The interchanges are all underneath land, apart from at illSTA. Also, the spiral tunnel inside illSTA descends through the surface level of the water. I'm not sure if we can set the boundaries of water so that they won't overlap the spiral road and avoid gaps around the curved ends of the island?

Mark
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#329

Posted 15 September 2006 - 12:35 AM

Might as well post it ere too, for whenever it's needed.

user posted image

Warhar. Release.

Thanks to STM, as usual tounge.gif

f*ck the doors, they're gay, so instead you just enter via the side of it using the coach animation. Not exactly awful, and I've tested it from trackside level as well as at stations, can get in both ways. Word.

BenMillard
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#330

Posted 06 October 2006 - 04:30 AM

Further discussion about the tunnel network should now go in the Myriad Island Tunnel System topic.

Any discussions about the railway route, stations, trains or adjescent lots should stay in this topic. smile.gif

Loco PM'ed me about his railside lot on illRES. I've asked him to post about it here so people can contribute their ideas to what we want there. I think it should be "clean" frieght like clothes, food, toys and mail. We've got a lot of dirty industrial places already.




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