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Anti-Cheat Protection

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SMG
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#1

Posted 29 May 2005 - 02:15 PM Edited by SMG, 29 May 2005 - 02:22 PM.

I found that in Multiplayer Mods for GTAIII & Vice City, the game was unplayable because there was so much cheating.

I just ask that when you start writing the mod, that this is always kept as a major consideration so that when exploits are found, they are made more of a priority.

Maybe when designing the Server Component, implement a way to control what moves are explitically allowed or not, for example not allow X car to go over Y MPH if the SCM files only allow the car to physically go at Y MPH instead of relying of Anti-Cheat protection on the Client-Side.

Ydrool
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#2

Posted 29 May 2005 - 03:20 PM

Well the only reason that there was tonnes of cheating in GTA3 & GTA:VC is because it was developed by MTA, they didnt put much effort into the Anti-Cheating side of the Multiplaer Mod But on the other hand i believe that SA-MP will get this bad area straightened out as they have proven that they have better skills than MTA allready.

breadfish_by_Moto.gif

f34r
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#3

Posted 29 May 2005 - 03:36 PM

Indeed from what i see i see that this mod has tonnes of potential that MTA just dismissed and was so arrogant because they were too caught up in their own "fame and glory" as the "only" playable Vice City Multiplayer Mod, they dismissed suggestions from their fans and did what they thought was best which has been drastic to say the least for MTA! tounge.gif They are slowly loosing their fans!

njr1489
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#4

Posted 29 May 2005 - 03:40 PM

Don't worry, they have loopnz for the anti cheat protection.

Kryptos
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#5

Posted 29 May 2005 - 08:51 PM

You guys are comparing this to MTA far too much. Leave the comparisons at the door, this is completely independent from them.

njr1489
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#6

Posted 29 May 2005 - 09:38 PM

QUOTE (Kryptos @ May 29 2005, 20:51)
You guys are comparing this to MTA far too much. Leave the comparisons at the door, this is completely independent from them.

Exactly. Just because MTA's protection is bad doesn't mean that it can't be done better than that. This will be better than MTA's current protection.

Kryptos
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#7

Posted 29 May 2005 - 11:07 PM

QUOTE (njr1489)
Exactly. Just because MTA's protection is bad doesn't mean that it can't be done better than that. This will be better than MTA's current protection.


No, I mean you people are comparing it to something that isn't relevant in this scenario. SA-MP is a modification in itself, not an offset of some MTA randition. Whether it be anti-cheat protection, gameplay, or anything else, there really isn't any need to compare it to MTA. Once you've played it you'll understand why.

SMG
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#8

Posted 30 May 2005 - 11:42 AM

Maybe something simular can be implemented like in HackCAM (Link to thread with 31MB Video). HackCAM lets spectators and dead players follow the screen of active players in the game and shows a box that shows if it thinks it detects a cheat or not.

njr1489
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#9

Posted 30 May 2005 - 12:36 PM

QUOTE (SMG @ May 30 2005, 11:42)
Maybe something simular can be implemented like in HackCAM (Link to thread with 31MB Video). HackCAM lets spectators and dead players follow the screen of active players in the game and shows a box that shows if it thinks it detects a cheat or not.

This is a nice idea. I would like to see my other enemies while they play, and people wouldn't complain about how much damge they lost, when you could see them.

Sobeit
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#10

Posted 30 May 2005 - 03:30 PM

QUOTE (SMG @ May 30 2005, 11:42)
Maybe something simular can be implemented like in HackCAM (Link to thread with 31MB Video). HackCAM lets spectators and dead players follow the screen of active players in the game and shows a box that shows if it thinks it detects a cheat or not.

you might not also know, HackCam is a piece of garbage.

it often bans people for doing nothing wrong.

if a stray bullet goes through a wall and hits somone, BAN.
if you turn a bit too fast or have a good ratio, BAN.

that aside, a good encryption, and file protection is all you would need.

i cant see d3d hacks being that usful....

though, SCM injection, and direct engine injection is what you need to worry about.

(more so, if you include a MOD source, like BLUE will have (MTA) which im not sure of.)

loopnz
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#11

Posted 07 June 2005 - 04:44 AM Edited by loopnz, 07 June 2005 - 04:52 AM.

Yes, I am developing the Anti-Cheat mechanisms.

Hopefully we can get a seperate topic devoted to it.

Grimsea
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#12

Posted 08 June 2005 - 10:57 PM

This is actually the first I've heard of SA-MP and it sounds awesome. I've been trying to follow the progress of MTA but never tried it. I'm an avid modder though, so I've got a question for you, Loopnz.

Is there anyway to have the clients referance the server settings, so I could mod out the game with new car models and stats, and distribute those changes to my friends, then play the multiplayer like that? As far as my group of friends is concerned, I'm not worried about cheating. But i would like to multiplayer on a modded version.

Anyway, these are just ideas/concerns. Thanks for your ideas on the subject.

Drizz
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#13

Posted 08 June 2005 - 11:56 PM

I have a question for SoBeit if he looks in this thread.

Are you planning to hack SA-MP like you did with MTA? sarcasm.gif notify.gif

f34r
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#14

Posted 09 June 2005 - 08:34 AM

Lol dont flatter him with those remarks. He is not the one who cracks it. He gets a "team" to do it for him..

Drizz
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#15

Posted 09 June 2005 - 11:35 AM

SoBeit hacks too and he's 1 of the best imo smile.gif

And if he hacked well mta once... and not only once, many times. Why couldnt he hack SA-MP? tounge.gif + he's hangin' around sa-mp forums where yall chat about development, progress n future of the multi player, so he can start preparing hacking even now tounge2.gif

f34r
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#16

Posted 09 June 2005 - 12:47 PM

Ah I see i get it. He's a "mole"

Sobeit
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#17

Posted 09 June 2005 - 03:10 PM

QUOTE (Drizz @ Jun 9 2005, 11:35)
SoBeit hacks too and he's 1 of the best imo smile.gif

although, i do take pride in what i do....id really like if it werent mentioned here.

second, untrue...jacob is the best cool.gif

Drizz
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#18

Posted 09 June 2005 - 03:48 PM

hehehe... Sobeit's evil plans in hacking samp are unmasked cool.gif




jus' kiddin, Sob wink.gif

f34r
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#19

Posted 09 June 2005 - 06:56 PM

2 Questions to Sobeit;

1) Why do you want to exploit the software?
2) Why should you be hanging around here, if you are planning on exploiting the software? Do you get a cheap thrill or something? What is the point in wrecking everyone elses game just for your self minded "thrill"?

Answer me that and I will show you a red dog. /Vice City Quote

Sobeit
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#20

Posted 09 June 2005 - 07:04 PM

QUOTE (f34r @ Jun 9 2005, 18:56)
2 Questions to Sobeit;

1) Why do you want to exploit the software?
2) Why should you be hanging around here, if you are planning on exploiting the software? Do you get a cheap thrill or something? What is the point in wrecking everyone elses game just for your self minded "thrill"?

Answer me that and I will show you a red dog. /Vice City Quote

well, in case you didnt know my history (lets assume you dont sarcasm.gif )

i did play legit in MTA for quite a long time.

as [KFC]OpiuM

i dont play to exploit such a work of art, as SAMP has become.

and why do i exploit 'the' software?

define 'the'

i exploit MTA's netcode to being fun to me and my fellow MTA players.

(we used to play in our server, until the server owner got shut down for unrelated reasons..)

the we played in =AA=s and now we have our own server again smile.gif

Kryptos
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#21

Posted 09 June 2005 - 07:22 PM Edited by Kryptos, 09 June 2005 - 07:37 PM.

QUOTE (Sobeit)
i dont play to exploit such a work of art, as SAMP has become.


That has to be one of the most brutal comments I've heard.

QUOTE (f34r)
2) Why should you be hanging around here, if you are planning on exploiting the software? Do you get a cheap thrill or something? What is the point in wrecking everyone elses game just for your self minded "thrill"?


QUOTE (Sobeit)
i exploit MTA's netcode to being fun to me and my fellow MTA players.


They exploit the network code, which is no more then a little bit of packet sniffing and reconstruction, because it's a simple task that takes nothing more then a relatively low-key programming background and a simple understanding of TCP/IP networking (don't hound at me for not saying UDP). I'm sure I'll get flamed because the new MTA uses AES encryption and it took them a few months to finally decrypt that, but anyone with more then five minutes to route around and find the network API MTA uses could have figured that one out without even performing anything at the network level, and then merely written a general algorithm based on the old protocol set from older versions using the AES algorithm.

Now if you'll excuse me, I feel this topic is an idiotic rave of self-indulgent children trying to glimmer in their claim to fame. No, I'm not starting a flame war, but considering the fact that you're all up against loopnz on this one, I can't wait to sit back and laugh at your attempts once this hits the public. Hacking online games isn't constructive, and if you'd read or talked to anyone who actually hacks games you'd know those actions are frowned upon.

f34r
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#22

Posted 09 June 2005 - 07:45 PM

I agree Kryptos. That is why I cannot see wh Sobeit is even tempting to hack SA-MP (when it is released). I do not believe that Sobeit does not just want to exploit MTA, i bleieve this will lead to SA-MP but with the right protection such as what loopnz (im sure has planned) there will no stupid little children claiming fame for exploiting a few packets that monkeys could do quite easily..

Sobeit
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#23

Posted 09 June 2005 - 07:48 PM

well, as for my brutal comment, i mean plan* instead of play, mistake on my part.

second, think what you will about me....i honestly do not care.

third, i will not be 'hacking' in SA-MP...

now, either delete all these absolutely senseless posts, or lock the whole topic.

loopnz
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#24

Posted 09 June 2005 - 11:29 PM Edited by loopnz, 10 June 2005 - 01:20 AM.

People, if you were exploiting MTA's netcode for "fun," why would you release a public cheat? If it were just for fun, you could've kept the project to yourself. Releasing a cheat is more of a popularity campaign; If you were tackling something as a personal feat, I don't see any reason to "show off," unless you're in it for the attention or trying to settle a score (which are two totally different goals.)

I don't see any reason to cheat in MTA or SA-MP. If you're looking for a cheap thrill, try doing a few crackmes. They're much more complex than a simple gamehack/trainer, and are definately worth the popularity in tackling such a feat.

I'm not talking about any single person (or group) in particular, so don't take it the wrong way. I'm here to have fun myself, I'm not in seek of a community vendetta.

As for the anti-cheat, don't expect to hear very much about it for now, it's still a little early.


Take care guys, enjoy the game!

wayner77
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#25

Posted 10 June 2005 - 07:49 AM

I'd like to fire off a few suggestions/requests if I may.

Actually, I'd like to see a separate and dedicated server/room/city/whatever where modifications to the game may be used. The ability to use mods on this server should, of course, be made known to anyone using the program so they'd have ample forewarning and could just avoid it if that is important to them. For one, I hate the stock cars in GTA...it's just not as fun with imaginary metal, IMHO. Not to mention that the "ride-along"s would likely be much more entertaining for both participants. I think if this ability were added to the mod, it should at least lower the cheating that would normally end up on on the other servers (despite programmer's best intentions and efforts, there is no "un-hackable" software, only software yet to be hacked.). If not a separate server for mods that affect gameplay and/or vehicle dynamics, maybe one that can at least use custom models/textures.

On a related note, one of the things on MTA (and I am sorry for the comparison to MTA but as far as I know, it's the only point of reference) that was an annoyance would be outright reason to not install SAMP (at least for me)-having to install it over a fresh install of San An. Yeah, having to come off of another gig and a half of drive space for MTA was more than a little inconvenient, but as I understand it (I don't have SA yet and don't remember the exact number) SA is somewhere around 4-5 gigs for a full install. Not all of us have a terabyte of hard drive space. Hell, I have 100 GB combined total and I'm burning CDs like a car-trunk vendor just to make room for SA and the mods that will inevitably follow.

Also, maybe get some peds in the game to eliminate the "It's moving so I'd better shoot it" effect that MTA seems to have on people. Players would have to target more accurately, it'd be a lot easier to pick up cars & cash and would add a lot of realism and a bit of a challenge to the game.

Admittedly, I don't know a great deal about creating mods-the only mods I've ever made myself for any GTA game were for Vice city and were just a few vehicle interior recoloring/decal removing texture mods (for personal use, and never published), and turning the "private show" stripper at Pole Position and one of the hookers male using a few of the game's existing ped textures and models-so I don't know exactly how difficult these mods would be to implement but every great idea begins as an idea.

Blokker_1999
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#26

Posted 11 June 2005 - 12:09 PM

I would like to point out some things.

No protection is perfect. You find cheaters in any multiplayer game, Be it Counter-Strike or MTA. And with all respect to the work that the SA-MP team is gonna put into protecting there mod, there will be cheaters and hackers in SA-MP. Is this a reason to forgo the protection? No it is not off course.

The reason why MTA requires a clean install is because unlike other games like CS or Q3A it is not that easy to define what files should be loaded and what files not. There is no pure system where you will only get the original files without any mods. This also brings up the problem of map mods. If everyone has a different map it is not easy to determine what mods are installed for everyone and you can not just send everyone the standard map. If the server is running a modified map itself then this map would have to be send to every client creating a lot of extra bandwith. And then there are so much other things that can be changed in GTA. I am ofcourse curious to see how SA-MP is gonna tackle this problem.

Sometimes when people talk they make it seem as if the cheating problem is easy to solve. But i guess that the reality shows that it is a verry dificult problem.

Kryptos
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#27

Posted 11 June 2005 - 05:15 PM

QUOTE (Blokker_1999)
Sometimes when people talk they make it seem as if the cheating problem is easy to solve. But i guess that the reality shows that it is a verry dificult problem.


If you add enough functionality to protect against the youthful, more limited audience, that generally represents 95% or more of the population that use or create cheats, then you can essentially avoid cheating in a large sense. Adding executable protection as well helps thwart this same population, and generally the extra 5%, in excess of the previously mentioned 95%, don't hack online games as it is a practice that goes against the ethics of game hacking. That's the difference between hacking the GTA engine, and hacking an online modification built on the GTA engine; the former creates additional gameplay and the latter a nuisance. Thus, it is not a difficult problem to solve, rather a matter of thwarting the lesser group that generally forms around communities like this and hoping that the people who can do the damage don't. The fact is, no matter what protection you add, whether it be cryptographic algorithms for the network layer, runtime protection, or otherwise, there is always someone out there who will be capable of obliterating everything you work for; after all, they have the advantage.

loopnz
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#28

Posted 11 June 2005 - 09:11 PM

QUOTE (Blokker_1999 @ Jun 11 2005, 12:09)
Sometimes when people talk they make it seem as if the cheating problem is easy to solve. But i guess that the reality shows that it is a verry dificult problem.

If I were to continue this thread by procrastinating the methods employed, it'd become rather boring to most..

As a recap of my last post, I don't want to give away any of the details just yet.. so I'm out of this topic colgate.gif


Blokker_1999
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#29

Posted 12 June 2005 - 08:40 AM

I just wanted to point out the fact that some people in this topic seem to think that SA-MP will be cheater free and that the protection will be perfect and that this is off course impossible. And i know off course that you will not tell anyone how the protection works or how it will be implemented, otherwise cheaters get a head start




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