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philosophy: life is a dream

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corrupt
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#1

Posted 17 April 2005 - 08:34 AM

i have just re-watched the matrix trilogy and it got me thinking a lot.
in the matrix neo was in a dream world untill he woke up. how can we know that we ourselves are not just in an elaborate dream and have not woken up yet? a dream is so lifelike that you go through it thinking it is real, then wake up and find it is not.
the human race may just have not woken up.
this gets me thinking about other philosophical ideas in the matrix. for instance:
what if we are trapped inside a program run by machines?
what if we really are just a brain in a vat?
what if everything we see, do and hear is not real?
maybe the matrix is closer to the truth than reality.
voice your thoughts on these questions and others.

p.s please don't insult me for believing a film.
p.p.s for more reference go here

Mortukai
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#2

Posted 17 April 2005 - 10:18 AM

QUOTE
p.s please don't insult me for believing a film.

Damn. You pre-empted me.

But seriously, this has been discussed here many times before. The only answer is that there is no way to know. It's all well and good to imagine it, and consider it, but in the end, you'll never, ever, be able to know. So because there is no way to verify it, you can choose to believe that we are all trapped in the matrix or Decarte's Demon or any one of the millions of similar ideas, but it won't do you any good at all, because it's useless one way or the other.

PhyschoPotato
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#3

Posted 17 April 2005 - 12:25 PM

There is a theory regarding sub-atomic particles and their being able to communicate to each other instantaneously, no matter how great the distance.

Seeing as Einstein stated that nothing moves faster then light and this has been backed up by numberous experiments, how is it that sub-atomic particles can instantaneously communicate?

The theory is that the entire universe is one immense hologram, every particle in existence containing all the information in the universe. It's a far-fetched but extremely interesting and logical conclusion to draw. We are all just mental projections of ourselves and we potentially have the power to alter anything in the universe, if our minds were strong enough.

http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html

Sweets
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#4

Posted 17 April 2005 - 12:38 PM

QUOTE (PhyschoPotato @ Apr 17 2005, 08:25)
There is a theory regarding sub-atomic particles and their being able to communicate to each other instantaneously, no matter how great the distance.

Seeing as Einstein stated that nothing moves faster then light and this has been backed up by numberous experiments, how is it that sub-atomic particles can instantaneously communicate?

The theory is that the entire universe is one immense hologram, every particle in existence containing all the information in the universe. It's a far-fetched but extremely interesting and logical conclusion to draw. We are all just mental projections of ourselves and we potentially have the power to alter anything in the universe, if our minds were strong enough.

http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html

@PhyschoPotato
The real question you should be asking yourself is, did you type that post because you wanted to, or because I used the tremendous powers of my mind to make you. blink.gif

@Mortukai
Unless Morpheus comes to get you and you choose the correct pill. Then you'd know.

@corrupt
The matrix sucked.

On-topic
QUOTE
what if everything we see, do and hear is not real?

Define real. Even if it isn't real, if it's the only "reality" you ever know, doesn't that make it real?
Or something.

corrupt
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#5

Posted 17 April 2005 - 12:57 PM

QUOTE
@corrupt
The matrix sucked.

@ SWEETSAPRICK
come on... we are not discussing the movie, and wether its good or bad. if you want to do that go to the movie forum.

you hear about things like out of body expieriences and the 'white light', and other illogical things. maybe thats what you see when you die and maybe when you die you are released or wake up or whatever. of course this begs another question; what happens after death?
QUOTE
The only answer is that there is no way to know.

who cares. this forum is not just about things we know - if it was why would anyone post? look at some of the other topics, many are about things we will never know. that doesnt mean we can't discuss them.
anyway, keep posting your views - but not about the point of this thread or your views on the film
smile.gif

Dom0803
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#6

Posted 17 April 2005 - 01:10 PM Edited by Dom0803, 17 April 2005 - 01:16 PM.

"The real question you should be asking yourself is, did you type that post because you wanted to, or because I used the tremendous powers of my mind to make you."

He typed it because he wated to. If he typed it because you wanted to, you would have yourself singled him out and told him to do it. 'Perhaps I made you post that without your concent' would have been a much more adaquet question.

Anyway. Just because it is said in a film does not mean it can't make sense. We must remember that films are created by humans and it's that human that creates that idea - not a film.

Personally I find the idea of us being in a dream is stupid. In our dreams we do not feel pain beacuse something in our brain tells us not to. So - if we are in another thing, let's call this thing X then this X will not feel the pain either, and neither will we because we areX's dream.

I had a deep thinking session once that lasted a good while - and I came to the conclusion of the meaning of real.

My definition of real is doubt. as doubt is the only thing we cannot doubt, as doubting that is actually doubt.

Makes perfect sense - keep reading it over and read it very slowely.

Sweets
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#7

Posted 17 April 2005 - 01:19 PM Edited by SWEETSAPRIK, 17 April 2005 - 01:28 PM.

Dude, I was kidding around with you, and there's no "C" in my name.

But, did you read the last part of the post? I was seriously asking your opinion on that.

Example: Someone spends their whole life dreaming, or for some reason is never actually conscious. Nothing they experience is truly "real", and they never witness any part of the "real" world.

Does that make what they do experience any less real?
Isn't reality (To any one person.) just their individual perception of it?
(edit)
Sorry, I type slow and just saw you post now Dom0803.

But what if what actually I wanted was for him to type that post and think that he did so of his own free will.

corrupt
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#8

Posted 17 April 2005 - 02:35 PM

sorry about inadvertently calling you a prick, SWEETSAPRIK
QUOTE
In our dreams we do not feel pain beacuse something in our brain tells us not to.
but what if what we are dreaming is a world without pain?
lets say for a second that you are asleep. you dream that someone as just stabbed you, however you do not dream that it hurts, therefore it does not hurt. So it doesnt hurt because you dont dream that it does.(trust me, it does make sense).
QUOTE
and neither will we because we areX's dream.
What if we are all in our own dreams, but that they all interlink because we are all connected and X itself is awake and monitoring us.
maybe X=God

Mr. Wongs
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#9

Posted 17 April 2005 - 04:12 PM

@Topic starter: Well good job, you've arrived to the same questions that every other Matrix nerd has managed to ponder. But in the end, like Mortukai said, it makes no difference. These speculations have no practical importance. Whether we are just a brain in the vat or not has no effect on our lives. It's like debating God's existence. You can argue it all you want, yet you really cannot prove either side of the argument with logical concrete, proof. I guess there are just things to argue about when we're bored, because clearly either are completely useless and non-pragmatic.

@Dom0803: You're just playing around with words and your own interpretation of them. Your theory actually makes no sense. You're defining doubt by incorporating it in your premise, you're going around in circles.

corrupt
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#10

Posted 17 April 2005 - 04:57 PM

QUOTE (Mr. Wongs @ Apr 17 2005, 17:12)
@Topic starter: Well good job, you've arrived to the same questions that every other Matrix nerd has managed to ponder.

hey, i find that offensive, and these theories arent just in the matrix
QUOTE (Mr. Wongs @ Apr 17 2005, 17:12)
I guess there are just things to argue about when we're bored

thats why i started this topic.
i have to say there is some truth in what you say, but it is fun to think about the 'what if?' bits of life. with all these wierd things going around - fate, life, death, aliens, god - you would be here forever trying to work out what is real and what is not. but it is fun to ponder.
btw does anybody believe the brain in a vat theory/dream theory?

Mr. Wongs
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#11

Posted 17 April 2005 - 06:19 PM

Oh no worries, there are plenty of others that waste their time thinking about such theories. "Am I really just a maggot in a jar whose sensations are inputted from a huge mainframe computer?" Really, who cares? Is your life more enjoyable knowing that such possibilities might be valid? Sure, it could be true, but once again, who cares? There is no way of verifying such claims, and no practical consequences to the theory.

I was exposed to this idea back in high school philosophy, and the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I'm wasting my time. Look at Rene Descartes. He thought about it so much that he came to doubt the existence of everything he thought to be "real". At least he snapped out of it in the end, but the point is that such thoughts have use. So off I went to carry on more practical things, like physics and calculus.

corrupt
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#12

Posted 17 April 2005 - 06:26 PM

well, i just wanted to see what other people thought.
i was thinking about it a lot for a while and realised that if i kept going i would probably turn insane and start poking things to make sure they are real - but then they still might not be real even if they felt right, wait a sec - how can i know for sure...erm, i cant.
ah.......

damn. well i have to say life is quite a nice dream..................

Tongue of Colicab
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#13

Posted 17 April 2005 - 08:54 PM

QUOTE (Dom0803 @ Apr 17 2005, 08:10)
Personally I find the idea of us being in a dream is stupid. In our dreams we do not feel pain beacuse something in our brain tells us not to. So - if we are in another thing, let's call this thing X then this X will not feel the pain either, and neither will we because we areX's dream.

What if in this dream, it feels so real, that your brain thinks its real, then it would feel pain, even if it was a dream.

And, you kinda lost me with the X thing. confused.gif

Dom0803
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#14

Posted 17 April 2005 - 09:31 PM

Corrupt - "but what if what we are dreaming is a world without pain?" - Exactly my point. It is not a world without pain thefor it is not a dream. It's just stupid anyway. There's no difference between - Maybe some guy is dreaming us. as it is - Maybe some guy is dreaming some other guy that is dreaming some other guy^331039583 that is dreaming us. *331039583 being the ammount of people that are dreaming each other before it comes to us who in turns dreams of being some other random guy when we sleep.

corrupt - "What if we are all in our own dreams, but that they all interlink because we are all connected and X itself is awake and monitoring us." Because there is no correlation. What if theorys come from having at least some sort of proof. If there is not the slightest bit of ANY proof at all (in this case) then the what if theory is simply what if.

Wongs. It makes perfect sense. I've put forward my thought to atleast 25 people and all have said that it makes perfect sense and is something they are sure of. Some have said it in minutes, some in days, but they've all said it makes sense.

Wongs - "who cares?" Many people. Actually.

Tongue - "What if in this dream, it feels so real, that your brain thinks its real, then it would feel pain, even if it was a dream." Then we are cancelled out and X awakens. X is simply a denotation for some supreme being in this theory of hierarchy.

Mr. Wongs
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#15

Posted 17 April 2005 - 11:06 PM

Wait, what? Since when are people mesmerized by such poor fallacious logic? Care to explain to me the meaning on this statement:
QUOTE

My definition of real is doubt. as doubt is the only thing we cannot doubt, as doubting that is actually doubt.

Yeah okay, doubt is real. What is doubt? It's just a word. It's a human creation. You can't doubt doubt, is that what you're saying? You need to sharpen that idea because it makes absolutely no sense.
QUOTE
Wongs - "who cares?" Many people. Actually.

Explain. Give examples, show me how this is of any practical importance to anyone.

dr zoidberg
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#16

Posted 19 April 2005 - 10:07 AM

Well of course we could be living in some virtual world. But it's still our world, it's the only reality we'll ever know, so in that sense it is real.

QUOTE
In our dreams we do not feel pain beacuse something in our brain tells us not to.

For the purposes of this discussion, we refer to it as a dream, but not a typical human, surreal dream. Think of it more as a virtual reality. If you had plugs in your brain which stimulated various senses, then it would be real. You would feel pain. Hunger, thirst, tiredness, at the end of the day it's just some nerves sending a message to different parts of the brain. And yes, you would die - because you accept this reality and know no different. It would be impossible not to accept it, it's the only reality we have.

Who's to say the whole world isn't some elaborate creation for one of us? I mean think about it, you are who you are. Perhaps this world is just full of actors performing roles in your life. This is very possible. It's known as solipsism, apparently. Dictionary.com Definition

D Jones
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#17

Posted 19 April 2005 - 02:01 PM

IMO it is not real. When you dream you can't feel anything, your mind is just imageing things while you dream. Wake up and you can feel if someone pinches you or something similar. Life is not a dream, and I won't believe until proof which no one IMO will ever have proof of this.

Charidemus
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#18

Posted 02 May 2005 - 12:43 PM

Life is too real, too complex to possibly be a dream, how could a simple dream incorporate time, senses, emotions, physics, and everything else in existence into a mind of imagination? And assuming it was true, and there was someone else operating us, what would they be? It would take another entire civilisation to create and manage the universe in such detail it is;

Or God.

Interesting philosophy though.




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