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The London Dossier

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dr zoidberg
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#481

Posted 23 February 2006 - 08:24 PM

QUOTE (carpetdweller @ Feb 23 2006, 13:45)
I fully agree with having more than just London in the next GTA. They should do the same as they did with SA - scale down a few of the major cities in the UK and add some countryside inbetween.

I don't know which cities to pick, but I think that London & Manchester would have to be included. Other possibilites being Newcastle, Liverpool, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast, Dublin, Cardiff.
I'd also like to see a representation of a fictional Yorkshire - 'Last of the Summer Wine' by day and 'An American Werewolf in London' by night.

This isn't much of a stretch as I think Manchester was already featured in the multiplayer section of GTA:London 1961.
Also, Salford holds the honour of being the only non-US location to have appeared in a 3-D GTA. Although we only saw the inside of a recording studio in The Introduction.

Would be great to have all those cities in it, but Dublin would have to be recognised as being a separate countries. Sounds obvious, but some morons seem to think Ireland is part of the UK (cf title sequence of Eurotrip) angry.gif . And if you were going to have Dublin you'd need a bit of Ireland to go with it.

It'd be great in London. Don't think that Manchester and Liverpool people would be too happy about being mashed together as one city though.

Mr Big Man
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#482

Posted 23 February 2006 - 09:13 PM

I'm not sure I'm keen on Liverpool and Manchester fusing together. Theyre too differernt, in the way the people act, their history and geography etc. i guess i'm biased, i dobnt wanna share a mangled together city with liverpool!!

But other than that, I'm right with you there, Medallion Man. Bigger is not necessarily better, and I found having three cities tiresome in SA. Two is a good number, and I'm suggesting that those two should be Manchester and London in GTA4. Here's why...

Looking back over the course of this topic, its obvious to see the reasons for wanting London as the next big GTA. A big, diverse city with a history of crime and a mixture of historic and modern buildings. Manchester, by comparison, is exactly the same, just slightly smaller. I'll take each aspect at once

Diverse City
Ethnic diversity is as big in Manchester as in anywhere in Britain, outside of London. As i have already outlined, Manchester has a very large indian/pakistani community, as well as a thriving Chinatown right in the city centre. Many other parts of town are home to various other communities, including large Jewish, Jamaican and Black African neighbourhoods.
Not only is Manchester full of different races and nationalities, but the locals are very individual also. A person from Manchester is called a Mancunian (or 'a Manc') Mancunians have a very distinct way of talking to one another. You'll probably remember of Maccer, such choice phrases as 'Ooooooh! Right in the f*ckin' 'appysack!' and 'F*ckin' mad for it!' Well, basically, thats how Mancs communicate. It'd be funny listneing to a Ped conversation in a Manchester GTA

History of Crime
Gang violence in Manchester has a long and bloody history. Most gangs start through families or people who attended school together/lived on the same estate. In the past (early 1980's) the level of gang violence escalated as heroin flooded the streets. Two main gangs formed; the Cheetham Hill gang and the Gooch Close gang. Most of the gang war centered around a club in Manchester city centre called 'The Hacienda' It has since been closed down, but its legacy as the drug/gang den of the north lives on. Other gangs have sprung up in Manchester, such as the Pepperhill gang and the Wythenshawe Boys. From April 2001 to March 2002, there were 11 fatal shootings; 84 serious woundings; 639 incidents of violence involving guns; 785 incidents of armed robbery and 50 burglaries where guns were used. In the last ten years, the number of gangs operating in the city has increased threefold. All the gangs operating in South Manchester are multi-ethnic.


Best of all, Manchester would be a brilliant partner to London for the next GTA. The so called 'North-South' divide means that Northern people (like Mancunians) distrust and dislike Southerners (like Londoners) This isnt always the case, but a lot of people fell it very strongly.
This would be a great story line for the game. you start off with no affiliation, but you are forced to take sides throughout the game, and end up fighting to make your city (and its gangs and drug rings) the most prominant in GTA Britain. However, within each city, the gangs themselves fight eachother, and so you end up with two cities 'tearing themselves apart through gang violence' like SA claimed Los Santos would be.
The main charater would have to bring the gangs of his city together in a bid to keep the other cities gangs at bay. you end up fighting a war on two fronts. A really simple, compelling concept to play with.

I guess its kinda similar to SA, cept were dealing with two cities, not just one (los Santos)
What do you all think about it? it's kinda growing on me.

Angel_Gabriel
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#483

Posted 23 February 2006 - 10:26 PM

I love the idea of a London-Manchester pairing. Manchester (or at least a Manchester-based-city) did feature in GTA London 61 so I guess Rockstar could pull some inspiration from that game. As for names though; one name I came up with for a Manchester-based-city which I was quite fond with was "Maccester".

Obviously the name comes from GTA SA Maccer but I thought it fit seing as how Maccer was from Manchester himself. He was a typical Mancunian Stereotype, and I hope that Rockstar can come up with some more Maccer-esque characters for a GTA London-Manchester Title.

Synthesis
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#484

Posted 23 February 2006 - 11:58 PM

My Concept of the London - Manchester Map Idea:

user posted image

I think two major cities would be better than the usual 3 because it allows room for more detail. I added the farm & other towns just to make it more British. Let me know what you think of it! :]

DuPz0r
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#485

Posted 23 February 2006 - 11:58 PM

I live in Uxbridge(west london), but im from Hammersmith (west central london).
I've been to many parts of london, and i've seen loads of different types of people. I think we have one of the most interesting cities in the world. with loads of history, and ever growing groups of cultures.

I think the gangs of london in gta would be great, and would create a great storyline too.
I'd love to be able to pick what gangs to work for, kinda like gta2, so you can go through a different story with each gang.

I think the black cab taxi mission would be alot of fun, and the vigilante missions would be interesting too.

There is also alot of different places to eat in london, wether its a chinese, indian, thai, turkish, italian ect. There should be a muscle/fat system like in SA, and you should be able to choose how you build yourself up.
Like go boxing down west london, or take up some wrestling, or some martial art, and this should effect your fighting style.

You should also be able to choose how your character looks, with a choice of culture, then a face shape ect.

These are just a thew things i would enjoy to see in the next gta if it was set in london.

Mr Big Man
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#486

Posted 24 February 2006 - 12:24 PM

Synthesis, i like your map, i think it'd be great to have what youve got there, but on a bigger scale. You'd have two HUGE cities (Manchester and London) and in between, a dozen or so much smaller towns based on places like Bath, Bristol. And in between all of this, you have all that lush green countryside to wander through, admire its beauty, do drug deals and dump bodies in its many forests.....
some seaside resorts (like you suggested) like Brighton or Blackpool would be cool too. I could see Blackpool Tower in the game... make a great snipers perch...

The smaller cities would have to have character of their own. Bath would have its Roman ruins, Somewhere like Durham would have its Castle and quaint narrow streets... you get the idea. To be honest, Angel Pine, Dillimore and Palomino Creek.... they were all the same to me. seen one backwater village, seen 'em all.
One tiny thing about your map though, it'd be better to have Manchester in the Northern part of it, and London in the South, just inkeeping with the north south divide thing.

I'd love to see some proper mountains as well... something like the Lake District or Snowdonia. But hey, thats a bit off topic. neither here nor there.

Synthesis
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#487

Posted 24 February 2006 - 05:11 PM

Thanks, I'm glad you like it :]

I actually realised I put London in the north after making it, but it was just to give an idea. The idea of two huge cities, with a few stereotypical other British villages and towns is great because this makes the map size bigger than Vice City, whilst being smaller than San Andreas. Remember though - San Andreas sacraficed detail for size, I this size idea would be a fair compromise.

Have any Britons have heard of the town thats been voted best place to live in England? (Think Castle and Huge restored Roman Gardens) I reckon the architecture there could be modelled really well.

Also here's the psd of the map if anyone would like to edit it

martdeco
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#488

Posted 24 February 2006 - 05:45 PM

Hey London folks. I got an idea from another guys topic about sports.

When I think of London one of the things I think of is the Wimbledon tennis tourny, is it in London?

If it is maybe we could get some tennis show up in there..?

user posted image

devil.gif

Dangerously Bad
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#489

Posted 24 February 2006 - 05:51 PM

omg i would love to have a gta 4 city based on london, you could have all sorts of missions for example stealing the crown jewls, imagine how much you could earn from that mission cool.gif and you could also raid the queens palace ect and you could also have one of those multi million pound flats that over look the thames as a safe house! there just a few simple ideas, the possibilities are endless cool.gif

bill_hoffman
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#490

Posted 25 February 2006 - 01:13 PM

I'm all for London GTA4 - in London no one is ever safe from crime, and the added bonus of sky scrapers, castles, tourists, the underground and the people makes it one of the most interesting cities in the world. Forget comparing anything to 'The Getaway' which would be a totally different game.

I cannot see an argument against London to any US city, the US is getting boring. sleepy.gif

Ciabatta
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#491

Posted 26 February 2006 - 02:17 PM

It would be nice if they bring the empire building accessibility back (first used in GTA:VC). Except you could buy a lot more businesses and a lot more safe houses. The safe houses could vary from a run-down apartment complex to a nice high-rise penthouse over looking Thames as someone has mentioned. Also I would like to see a lot more done with safe houses. You should be given the option of whether or not to make your safe house more useful to the organization you are working for or the organization you're creating.

For example, once you buy the safe house you could choose to either make it a small drug den, a gang house (for your crew to lounge around and for you to see what's happening within the gang), or just a safe house to change clothes and what not.

Medallion Man
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#492

Posted 27 February 2006 - 10:52 AM

• First of all thanks for all the great input to the thread over the last page or so, this exactly the kind of stuff I like to see in here.

• As I've said before I personally hope that Rockstar don't chicken out and waste the huge potential for new and exciting themes and locations which the European region offers the series, by chucking together a messy, San Andreas x2 stylee, pan European game. As I've said before I have various ideas for how a London setting would be worked into GTA (such as my "European Job" proposal). Personally I'd much prefer a European trilogy to a single pan European installment.

As is eminently clear to anyone who has a reasonably functioning and right minded brain: Europe has more than enough interesting and unique cities to sustain a trilogy of GTA games. Lets face it, if there is ever a European trilogy, the most logical place to start is the UK. It's the original Anglo-Saxon culture and the ideal jumping off point into Europe. As is equally obvious, any UK set game would focus upon London (and not Leicester) as its fulcrum.

With London obviously acting as the focus of any UK (or even European set GTA) the only question that would remain would be what cities to partner with it. That is of course supposing that Rockstar don't go back to using a single city, with the aim of evolving the 'living city' concept to be more representative of real world metropolis'. As I've said before I personally hope that Rockstar do build on the 'living city' concept and I believe that they will, this would mean that we wouldn't necessarily be getting an increase in the number of game world cities (though as a Londoner those cities to date felt more like medium sized towns to me). Personally I hope and expect that the next GTA will invest, in terms of area, detail and interactivity, in the the city itself. I'd still expect, post San Andreas, to see countryside but I'd not expect (nor desire) to see more than 3 cities in any future GTA's.

In terms of what those one or two secondary cities would be in any GTA:UK I'd say the most likely contenders would be Manchester, Glasgow, Liverpool or a northern industrial town with elements of places like Sheffield but without any emphasis on copying its landmarks. Birmingham, though the second biggest city in the UK, lacks the character of Manchester or Liverpool (or even Newcastle), ditto Nottingham, in spite of its problems with gun crime; Edinburgh could possibly be used in place of Glasgow, after all it is the home of Rockstar North (GTA makers) and is beautiful in parts (like the roman gardens Synthesis mentions), but then Glasgow is Scotland's capital and is notorious for small time gangs doling out big time violence.

That's why I suggested combining Manchester and Liverpool into one city, for the interests of the game: that way we get the culture and interest of both cities without stretching the game over too many cities (considering that Glasgow/Edinburgh is an equally valid candidate). Maybe not mash Manchester and Liverpool together per se, but rather have them almost as two cities, that are very close on the map (perhaps separated by water) and when added together are almost the same size as the 'London' city. Having them act almost as opposite sides of the same city would, I feel, emphasise the contrast and traditional Manc/Scouse rivalry so that non Brits would pick up on it, rather than having them as two seemingly unrelated cities (ala Los Santos and San Fierro). That way we get a sweaty sock city too...

• Whilst on the Manchester point: I enjoyed Mr Big Man's Mancunian breakdown and wanted to add that, in line with the North-South divide, when I discussed gangs in GTA: London, I talked about football hooligans and how northern thugs could come down to the 'London' city on matchdays when we could stumble upon mass street brawls between rival supporters. Obviously if 'Manchester' was included, this would work both ways.

• I like your map Synthesis, other than swapping London and Manchester: London needs a river, London ain't London without the Thames.

martdeco: Yes Wimbledon is in London, but personally I can't see that a gangster is going to be spending a prominent amount of his time at a lawn tennis club. But I know whet you're getting at.

QUOTE (Dangerously Bad @ Feb 24 2006, 17:51 )
i would love to have a gta 4 city based on london, you could have all sorts of missions for example stealing the crown jewls, imagine how much you could earn from that mission  and you could also raid the queens palace ect and you could also have one of those multi million pound flats that over look the thames as a safe house! there just a few simple ideas, the possibilities are endless
They are indeed. London lends innumerable scenarios to GTA, like stealing the crown jewels (lets see you do that in Denver rolleyes.gif ) or even re-enacting the Millennium Dome diamond heist. Also: those Canary Wharf penthouses you mention would make "Mad Dogs crib" look like a squat, imagine being able to walk around inside it and admire the view of Londons sprawling beauty below! wow.gif

Speaking of which: Ciabatta, I agree with you entirely on asset properties and I made a couple of threads which touch on elements of that nature here and here. London would offer great variety for safe houses, from pokey flats in run down, crack addict infested, tower-blocks, through high rise, high style riverside penthouses and expansive country manor houses.

QUOTE ( DuPz0r @ Feb 23 2006, 23:58 )
I've been to many parts of london, and i've seen loads of different types of people. I think we have one of the most interesting cities in the world. with loads of history, and ever growing groups of cultures.
Only ignorant imbeciles would say anything to the contrary, London is the world in one city (much like New York) which is, partly, what makes it perfect for GTAIV.

---
In the next few days I'm going to make a post detailing some of the Great British robberies taken down by London based mobs, to prove a point about just how well Londons' criminal underworld compare to their U.S counterparts. (i.e how they've consistently pulled off far bigger, more audacious and thoroughly affected heists.)

miketheking
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#493

Posted 28 February 2006 - 08:36 AM

are people forgetting, the good old football firms.
all the fighting devil.gif

nikxond
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#494

Posted 28 February 2006 - 01:01 PM

britain and london are good but i cant f*cking stand the cocky weather

Raindancer
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#495

Posted 28 February 2006 - 01:14 PM

QUOTE (miketheking @ Feb 28 2006, 09:36)
are people forgetting, the good old football firms.
all the fighting devil.gif

I feel the weather is pretty balanced in the Kingdom. We get all sorts of weather here (Rain, Snow, Rain, Sunny, Rain, Windy, Hail, Rain) I would like a greater use of weather cycles in GTA London Town. (seasons etc etc) but that another thread.

Dangerously Bad
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#496

Posted 28 February 2006 - 06:22 PM

you could also have a similar area69 mission in london by using the mi6 headquarters as the base you have to break into, and you could have loads of mi6 agents trying to stop u lol devil.gif cool.gif

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#497

Posted 28 February 2006 - 06:27 PM

QUOTE (Dangerously Bad @ Feb 28 2006, 18:22)
you could also have a similar area69 mission in london by using the mi6 headquarters as the base you have to break into, and you could have loads of mi6 agents trying to stop u lol devil.gif cool.gif

now thats an idea

Gabriel Constantin
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#498

Posted 28 February 2006 - 06:37 PM

I agree. Though I am still particulary found of Med' Man's idea for "Crown Jewels Heist." If GTAIV was set in London I'm sure that would be one of the missions I'd be able to play over and over again without geting bored of it. I would especially love it if the mission ended in eventual Police Chase in Mini Coopers with the sound of "Self Preservation Society" in the background.

martdeco
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#499

Posted 01 March 2006 - 06:24 PM

QUOTE (Gabriel Constantin @ Feb 28 2006, 13:37)
I agree. Though I am still particulary found of Med' Man's idea for "Crown Jewels Heist." If GTAIV was set in London I'm sure that would be one of the missions I'd be able to play over and over again without geting bored of it. I would especially love it if the mission ended in eventual Police Chase in Mini Coopers with the sound of "Self Preservation Society" in the background.

I seen that movie. It was weird, prolly coz it was old. but quite a part of it could be done in GTA like the car chase and such.

Hey perhaps Micheal Cane could do a voice if GTA was in London?

Medallion Man
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#500

Posted 02 March 2006 - 01:05 PM

Possibly, though I'd doubt that the series would attract an actor of that high a profile. Besides: who the f*ck is Young Malay when he's at home?! I'd never heard of him pre his playing CJ (I wanted Eddie Murphy for that role, like that was ever gonna happen rolleyes.gif ) and I don't recall hearing of him since.

I'd love to see Sir Mike in there, of course, I'd also like to see (or hear) Ray Winstone and Bob "it's good to talk" Hoskins, but like I say: I doubt the series would attract such high profile actors. I think, as with CJ, it's more likely to be someone far less well known in the lead role.

Pick me Rockstar, I'm a cockney!

Medallion Man
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#501

Posted 02 March 2006 - 01:06 PM

user posted image
In light of last weeks, record busting, £53 million ($92.6 million USD) Securitas Depot Heist, taking place just outside London, I thought I'd do a run down of some of the Great British Blags (that's robberies for our U.S cousins). The following post lists a number of high profile and extremely large heists which have been taken down by London based Crews.

Reading this post will show you that the London underworld has a long tradition of producing gangs of villains capable of pulling off such large scale, audacious robberies, un matched by any other.

All of these jobs make the Lufthansa heist, made infamous by Goodfellas, look like taking candy from a baby...
___________________________________________________________
// Great British Blags.
___________________________________________________________

I'll start with the most recent first. I'm only mentioning robberies with a specific relevance to London (hence my not mentioning other UK robberies such as the £26 million I.R.A bank job of last year).

Successful Scores.

• Kent Securitas Depot Heist, £53 million ($92.6 million USD), 2006.
The 2006 Kent Securitas Depot heist, of just last week, is, at just over £53 million ($92.6 million USD), the biggest ever organised gang robbery of cash, anywhere in the world (there is one cash robbery bigger: Sadam Hussien used the Iraqi army to 'withdraw' $1 billion dollars from Iraqs central bank, during the bombing of Baghdad. Obviously there is quite a difference between an army taking money from a chaotic warzone and organised criminals pulling a heist in one of the most civilised countries in the world.).

It dwarves the biggest ever U.S robbery by a staggering $73.7 million dollars. So much for London/UK gangsters being "gay" then eh... rolleyes.gif

The robbery took place in Tonbridge, just outside of London and was planned and carried out with military precision, most likely by an organised crime gang out of South London (just like Brinx Mat and the foiled Dome Diamond heist, also discussed in this post. Infact one of the main suspects in this case was accused of involvement in the latter). The heist went down in three stages:
1st: Two gang members, disguised as police officers driving a car dressed up with flashing blue lights as an un-marked patrol vehicle, pull over the cash depot manager as he drives home along the motorway (freeway). The gang members then hand-cuff and kidnap the depot manager.
2nd: Two other gang members, also posing as police officers, go to the depot managers family home and inform his wife that her husband has been involved in an accident and that she should come with them to the 'police station'. The gang then take the depot managers wife and eight-year old son hostage in a farm building in the Kent countryside.

At this point the depot manager is also taken to the farm building where the family are tied up at gun point and the gang tell the depot manager that his wife and son will be killed if he does not cooperate.
3rd: In the early hours of the morning the gang raids the cash depot. The depot manager and his family are taken by the armed gang to the depot where the gang force the manager to let one of their number into the compound. Once inside the compound the gunman forces staff to open the compound and the rest of the gang enter in several vehicles.

The staff inside the compound are all bound up at gun point by an armed gang of at least six men (the logistical arm of the crime would have to be much bigger). The gang then take over an hour to load the unprecedented haul of new and used banknotes into several vehicles, including a 7.5 tonne truck and a van dressed up as a mail service van. An hour later the staff manage to free themselves and activate an alarm alerting the police, however the gang are long gone.

The gang escapes with the biggest haul in organised criminal history, after a heist that went like clockwork.

A job like that would have involved months of planning and surveillance, with the kind of expertise that could only come from hardened, veteran criminals, something which London has no shortage of; it's just the latest and largest in a long tradition of such audacious robberies, which are somewhat of a speciality in the London underworld.

• Knightsbridge Security Deposit robbery, £40 million ($70 million USD), 1987.
The 1987 Knightsbridge Security Deposit Robbery was, until recently, the biggest robbery in world history. The haul, comprised of cash and valuables from safety deposit boxes, totalled £40 million ($70 million USD). Adjusted for inflation to today's value, the haul is worth a total of £66 million ($117 million USD); to put that into perspective, the 1978 Lufthansa heist made famous by Goodfellas was worth $6 million USD ($18 million USD at today's inflation), meagre by comparison.

The Knightsbridge Security Deposit Robbery was carried out in audacious fashion by Valerio Viccei and a single accomplice who requested to rent a safe deposit box. On being shown the vault the pair pulled out firearms and secured the vault and the bank, they then let in further accomplices and successfully made off with, what was at the time, the worlds largest ever haul. Viccei's finger print was later identified on one of the safety deposit boxes and he and his accomplices caught. Viccei was later shot dead by the police in Italy.

• Brinks Mat Heist, £26 million ($45 million USD), 1983.
The 1983 Brinks Mat Robbery, also a bigger score than any U.S mob ever pulled off, has all the ingredients of a Hollywood blockbuster (including a bigger score than the NY mob would know what to do with). The final total of the score came to £26 million ($45 million USD). Adjusted for inflation to today's value, the haul is worth a total of £48 million ($85 million USD), so in real terms, it can still be called one of the very biggest heists in history.

The score was taken down by a gang headed up by notorious London gangsters 'Mad' Mickey McAvoy and Brian 'the Colonel' Robinson, who's sister was living with a guard from the Brinx Mat depot (the gangs not so incognito inside man). The gang had laid down and executed a detailed plain to pull the score on the high security Brinks Mat compound at Heathrow. However the gang got more than they bargained for, when the staff (after being doused in Petrol) opened the vault, the gang had to change their plans mid heist as what was intended as a score of cash turned into a score of £26 million in bars of solid gold bullion, that was waiting to be transferred to the far east. As a result of the scale of the score, members of the gang left to get more suitable vehicles and in all it took two hours for them to take the job down.

Due to the scale and nature of the robbery, McAvoy and 'the Colonel' had to seek the services of more skilled gangsters, "bigger fish", from the London underworld. The gang called in the expert services of a shady villain known as 'the Fox', a well connected fence from the London underground, a senior figure in UK crime with associations with many London gangs, including the notorious 'Adams family'. 'The Fox' used his skill and contacts to smelt down and launder the bullion.

Soon after the robbery it became clear that Brian 'the Colonel' Robinson was involved through his sisters partner and Mickey McAvoy had moved out of his south London council house and into a mansion in the Kent countryside, going so far as buying two Rottweiler dogs to protect it, naming them 'Brinks' and 'Mat'. When the police discovered the inside man from the job, it wasn't long before he started naming the men involved, who were now living lives of luxury. Both Robinson and McAvoy were eventually arrested and sentenced to 25 years imprisonment.

On being sent down, McAvoy entrusted his share of the gold to several associates, including Brian Perry, who witheld the money when McAvoy tried to do a deal with the police. Whilst McAvoy was inside, 'The Fox' who had eluded capture, pointed the finger at Perry, saying that he had betrayed the gang and taken the gold, though 'The Fox' himself was living in even greater wealth. Perry was later arrested for having handled the gold and during his trial received a letter threatening him with death if he continued to withold the gold, pointing out that the gang would not be in prison forever. Perry never did hand over any gold, however he was shot dead on November 16th 2001. Mickey McAvoy, now free, resides in Spain.

For years the alleged mastermind behind the laundering of the score, 'The Fox', had remained unidentified. However, it later developed that Kenny Noye had been introduced to the gang by Perry. Noye was placed under extremely high levels of police surveillance. Noye was a seemingly legitimate businessmen, however it would later emerge that he had links spanning from the high-end of the local London underground, to Eastern Europe, the United States, latin America and with groups such as the mafia. However, during his heavy surveillance, in January 1985, he killed an undercover police detective (John Fordham) on his property. At trial he escaped free of charge after the jury delivered a verdict of self-defence. Noye was also linked to two other murders- the execution of a car dealer who's body turned up on the Rainham marshes, on Londons' fringes, in 1990 and the murder of a private investigator in a pub car park in 1987. Noye was seemingly 'untouchable'.

In 1986, however, Noye would once again face a jury, along with a member of the Adams Family gang, Thomas Adams, after bars of gold were found in his property. Noye was successfully prosectuted on grounds of tax evasion and "conspiracy to handle Brinks Mat gold" and sentenced to an aggravated 15 year prison sentence (of which he was to serve 14 years). Noye's parting words to the jury in court were: "I hope you all die of cancer."

After serving 14 years Noye was released and he began rebuilding his criminal empire, however in June 1996 he murdered Stephen Cameron who had made a late lane change in front of him coming off of the M25 motorway (freeway). He stabbed Cameron in the heart and the liver, in full site of the victims fiancé, leaving him to bleed to death. The case became infamous as the road rage murder and a large man-hunt ensued. Noye was found in Spain in 1998 whilst trying to charter a private helicopter to France. He was sentenced to life imprisonment.

No doubt if Kenny Noye was a New York mobster, Scorcesse or the like would have made a big budget film, glorifying his life and glamourising the Brinks Mat robbery; I'd say he was a cross between two of the Goodfellas characters: Robert DeNiros calculating character in terms of his skill as a fence with elements of the sociopathic characteristics from Joe Pesci's maniac in terms of unrestrained, murderous violence.

Most of the stolen £26 million Brinks Mat gold remains un found to this day. It is suspected that it was invested in a variety of ways, from Drug trafficking to property in the London Docklands, which would by now have payed up extraordinary dividends. Legend has it that most modern jewellry in London has in it somewhere, part of the Brinks Mat haul.

• Security Express, Shoreditch Depot Heist, £6 million ($10 million USD), 1983.
The 1983 Security Express heist, of £6 million ($10 million USD) was, just like all the other heists listed here, the record breaker of its day, the biggest in the world at the time. Again, adjusted for inflation, at £11 million today's value ($19 million USD) this is no smaller even than the biggest ever U.S heist ($18.9million USD in 1997) and is bigger than the Lufhansa heist (adjusted at $18 million USD today) which was glamourised by Martin Scorcesse in Goodfellas.

The gang that took down this heist included notoriously ruthless London gangster Freddie Foreman, flamboyant Ronnie Knight and his brother John Knight. The hesit took place on Easter Monday 1983, when John Knight and a crew of armed robber stormed the supposedly impregnable Security Express depot in Shoreditch, they successfully subdued the staff and gained access to the vault. The gang got away scott free, leaving no clues that the police could pick up on.

Ronnie Knight then successfully laundered the cash. The five key suspects in the case (including the Knight brothers, Freddie Foreman, Ron Everett, John Mason and Clifford Saxe) fled to Spain who had no extradition treaty with at that time and became known as the famous five, living a glamourous life on what became known as the 'Costa del Crime', home to a huge number of notorious London gangsters, ranging from Kenny Noye of Brinks Mat fame to Europe's most wanted drugs baron- Mickey 'the Pimpernell' Green.

For years the gang escaped capture and they were celebrated by elements of the British tabloid press while they got in on the criminal action in Spain, moving in, along with other London villains on the drugs trade. It was even alleged that some of the proceeds were invested into setting up the Brinks Mat heist (detailed above).

Clifford Saxe was believed by the police to be the mastermind behind the heist but he was never charged, he died while awaiting extradition from the 'Costa del Crime'. Ronnie Knight was sentenced to 10 years in 1994 after pleading guilty to handling the money and his brother John to 22 years for his part in the heist.

• The Great Train Robbery, £2.6 million ($4.6 million USD), 1963.
The 1963 "Great Train Robbery" was, again, a record setter in its day. Adjusted for inflation to today's value of the score is £16 million ($28.5 million USD), some sources claim that in real terms this raid would be equivalent to £40 million today ($69 million USD), either way, it is again larger than any such robbery in the U.S.

This heist is probably the most well known and well covered of all the robberies on this list. It truly is infamous. From the life long game of cat and mouse that Ronnie Biggs played with the police, to the story of how the robbers played monopoly with the stolen bank notes while they were holed up after the heist, this has to be one of the most famous episodes in British criminal history.

The heist was masterminded by Bruce Reynolds, who carefully studied the movements of cash and valuables on postal trains leaving London, making sure to select the perfect location to hit the train- close to London so as not to alert the police and close to heavy goods loading areas so that their vehicles would not look out of place. The score went down on August the 8th, 1963 at 3 past 3 in the early hours of the morning. The gang, dressed as rail way workers stopped the train, gained access to the Post Office Sorting Coach and made off with the majority of its contents.

Following the successful heist, the gang holed up in a nearby farm, where they played Monopoly with a quantity of the stolen bank money. However, under pressure from the police investigation the gang left the farm house in a hurry, leaving behind vital evidence, including fingerprints on the Monopoly set. The gang then attempted to flee the country, with one of the first Ronald 'Buster' Edwards making it to Mexico, where he would spend three years before returning to the UK to give himself up. 12 of the gang were jailed in 1964, sentenced to 307 years between them however two of that number, Charlie Wilson (the first to be arrested) and Ronnie Biggs, escaped. Wilson was captured in Canada in 1968, but Biggs evaded capture until he turned himself in, with his health failing, in 2001. Biggs became infamous for his life on the run, successfully evading capture on several occasions and using plastic surgery to alter his appearance, living in Spain, Australia and Brazil.

Bungled Blags.

• Foiled Millennium Dome Diamond Heist, £200 million ($350 million USD), 2000.
Though the £200 million Millennium Dome Diamond heist was foiled at the last moment, it merits a mention for its sheer audacity and dimension, in terms of both the scale of the value of the heist and the scale and organisation of the operation. If it succeeded it would have been the robbery of the millennium, in every sense of the word.

If ever there was a real world heist that could compete with those of fanciful Hollywood action movies this was it.

It would make the fictionalised action of HEAT look like amateur night.

It has all the ingredients for an over the top action caper: organised, ruthless criminal gang; the worlds biggest ever criminal robbery, the biggest ever diamond; epic London Millennium Dome backdrop; giant JCB bulldozers used in armed storming of world famous Land mark (fresh from a Bond film); large scale, four month long police operation tipped off by rival gang; getaway speed-boats waiting on the river Thames; 100 armed police swooping in on the heist in progress.

The only thing is it actually happened! It wasn't just the brainchild of some high-flying Hollywood scriptwriter.

In fact, now that I think about it, it would be a perfect scenario for re-enactment in any GTAIV: 'London', it has all the over the top, action packed requirements for the game, except it actually happened! Imagine re-enacting it: your armed gang storms the secure compound of world famous, iconic London Landmark, using buldozers and an array of weapons; you steal the worlds biggest ever diamond; you are ambushed by 100 armed police officers and a shootout ensues; you fight your way to high powered speed boats and are engaged in a high speed chase down the mighty river Thames; all the while knowing that what you are doing is based on rea life, actual events!. What the f*ck can Atlanta or Detroit or Seattle or Blandsville, Nowhere County U.S.A offer to top that?!?!? (That's even before you go back to London to top it by stealing the Crown Jewels from the castle keep!)

And the ignorants like to claim that "nothing 'GTA-like' happens in London". rolleyes.gif

Timeline for the heist.
Pictures of the heist in progress.
BBC portal.

• Foiled Swissport Heathrow Depot Heist, £80 million ($140 million USD), 2004.
The foiled Swisport Heathrow heist of 2004, like the foiled Millennium Dome diamond heist, merits a mention for it sheer enormity, like the Diamond heist, if pulled off it would have been the biggest robbery in the world at £80 million ($140 million USD).

The heist (merely the latest in a long line at Heathrow) was perpetrated by an armed, 8 man gang, on Monday 18th May 2004. They successfully forced their way into the compound, having legitimate papers to pick up a shipment, however as they attempted to make their getaway, armed police shot out the tires on their van. Two of the robbers managed to hijack another vehicle and escape.

The police were aware of the raid as they had been spending large resources in a large scale operation monitoring the Heathrow area after a string of large heists.


What all this shows clearly, is that London/UK villains can easily compete with anything New Yorks criminal underworld ever offered up. As I've said: these jobs make the Lufthansa heist made infamous by Goodfellas look like childsplay.


---
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to romanticise crime here, it's just that all of this proves that Londons' organised gangs can more than compete with anything the U.S underworld has ever produced; as testified by the fact that they've pulled off (far) bigger scores. The profligacy of such audacious heists proves the extremely high levels of competence and skill present in the London underworld as well as the sheer size of the bollocks on such mobs that take down these huge scores. People who state anything to the contrary are clearly ignorant of the factual truth of the matter, that's all I'm doing here, disproving all the "Ludnod gnags aer teh ghey" muppets, by showing that they've pulled of bigger scores than (any of) their U.S cousins.

London mobs have consistently pulled off bigger scores than anyone else in the criminal world. That's a fact.

farrugia
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#502

Posted 03 March 2006 - 08:47 AM

Once again, truly impressive work from Medallion. icon14.gif

What I find really interesting in these heists was the lack of unnecessary bloodshed and killings. It is very easy to start shooting and kill people. Druggies do it all the time. However, to do this during a heist is a bad sign.

First of all, killing people during a crime immediately changes the whole scope of the police invetsigation. A daring robbery is an embarassment for the police - the people may even sympathise with the robbers. Witness the Kent Police's attempts during the investigations of this last robbery to portray the robers as savages who terrorised a boy on his birthday. The truth is that no one was seriously hurt. Throw in the proverbial dead man, however, and the whole scenario changes. The robbers are no longer thiefs but savages. Public opinion is totally against them, there is mounting political pressure to bring the criminals to justice. No one would want to be associated with you or handle your goods. You're screwed. And why should one have to kill? The necessity to kill implies that either the original plan wasn't good enough, or the robbers were too stupid to stick to it. In short, a lot of murders makes a heist (however brilliantly planned) undesirable. Which is why San Andreas' heist sucked.

And which brings us to a second point Medallion has said. London was the capital of the largest empire in the world. All the trade of the world flowed through, or was centered on, London. London's connections, in the form of present business interests, friendships, and colonies of ex-pats, span the globe. Therefore London is the perfect setting for any gang with large ambitions. It's got the goods. It's got the contacts. It's got the experience in the form of veteran gangsters and IRA-war survivors (one of themen arested in connection with the Securitas robbery is 60 years old). And as Medallion Man showed, the things that happen in London often surpass the things that happen in fiction.

Not to mention the Crown Jewels lol.gif

Quadropheniac90
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#503

Posted 03 March 2006 - 11:43 AM

Good topic, you showed all of the idiots around here they're wrong. smile.gif

Offtopic: How are British accents gay? I like them. smile.gif
.:Teun:.

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#504

Posted 03 March 2006 - 04:07 PM

QUOTE (teun.steenbekkers @ Mar 3 2006, 11:43)


Offtopic: How are British accents gay? I like them. smile.gif
.:Teun:.

You may like it, but do you understand what are they talking about? devil.gif

As for MedallionMan - with a work like this you will force them to make it in London. xmas.gif

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#505

Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:23 PM

I don't get the halfwits and their even more halfwitty arguments, if one could call them arguments, about where the next gta will be set... Most important thing is, there IS going to be yet another game in the line of this already superb franchise.

Lets face it, leave it to R* in creating a violent gang ridden crime paradise out of any city...

I even hope they put in some other major european cities like Berlin and Paris (and suburbs), or at least consider it for perhaps another trilogy-to-come..


KDD

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#506

Posted 04 March 2006 - 05:02 AM

QUOTE (SteveShady @ Nov 19 2004, 16:52)
QUOTE (Rudde the Man @ Nov 19 2004, 15:05)
I just cant imagine a GTA where people drive on the wrong side of the road & talk English with the British accent.

Glad you changed your mind, couple of points though, and ive saud these before.

Left side of the road? Right side? Who cares how often do you stick to it, and besides us Brits didnt find it difficult at all to drive on the right, piece of cake it is.

And accents wont make the game bad at all, personally I love the accent i have (the cockney one) and there are so many different ones, im sure you'll love it too.

Yeah, I have nothing against english people, and it would be a great setting for a GTA game, I just don't like the UK accents. No offense, but wouldn't everyone love an Aussie accent to play with? turn.gif [Sorry if anyone found this post anoying.]

farrugia
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#507

Posted 04 March 2006 - 09:22 AM

It is amusing how quickly an intelligent discussion falls to levels of ridicule within seconds.

Accents?

Are we really considering whether or not London would make a good setting for GTA4 based on the English accent?

First of all, there is no single English accent. Even from my limited knowledge of the "Britishers" I know that there are multitudes of different accents in Britain, same as there are many different accents in the US. In the same way that you can't say a New Englander speaks the same as a Texan, you can't talk about an "English" accent.

Secondly, the American (usually of the Texan variety) accents are the most widely ridiculed and goofed accents in the world. I'm sure a number of US tourists don't realise this, but when "forreners" (as you call them) speak with an accent you find familiar they are actually making fun of you. American slang and tonality is hard to understand if you're not born in it. Yet millions of Europeans enjoy US shows on TV and US films at the cinema because we made ourselves understand it. Nobody complained about not understanding San An's ghetto language, even though it was miles away from what we are accustomed to. I guess a similar point can be made about Australian, but I'm not sure I'd understand the Ozzies' response. Right, mate. That's a fair dinkum, no? (No offense meant. Like most other Maltese(rs) I've got tons of Australian relatives biggrin.gif )

Finally, Rockstar North is headed by [drum roll] Londoners [cymbal crash]. I'm sure they would not agree with all this talk of Englishmen being ghey, wearing tights and babbling incoherently. Besides, R* North is based in Scotland - and Scottish is a difficult language to understand if there ever was one.

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#508

Posted 05 March 2006 - 11:15 PM

QUOTE (Medallion Man @ Mar 2 2006, 13:06)
So much for London/UK gangsters being "gay" then eh... rolleyes.gif

All gangsters are "gay".

Unless of course you believe that tying up innocent women and children at gunpoint and telling them you'll kill them is the new hip n' trendy thing to do.

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#509

Posted 06 March 2006 - 06:23 AM

QUOTE (farrugia @ Mar 4 2006, 09:22)
First of all, there is no single English accent.

Buddy, don't get all crazy over an "idiot" like me. lol.gif Note the plural. wink.gif

Hehe, but I guess I'd rather have it in London than Edinburgh, no offense to Scotts.

farrugia
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#510

Posted 06 March 2006 - 10:42 AM

QUOTE (Freebasser @ Mar 6 2006, 00:15)
QUOTE (Medallion Man @ Mar 2 2006, 13:06)
So much for London/UK gangsters being "gay" then eh... rolleyes.gif

All gangsters are "gay".

Unless of course you believe that tying up innocent women and children at gunpoint and telling them you'll kill them is the new hip n' trendy thing to do.

Then why are you a member of GTA Forums?

Of course tying up kids, etc.. is not a hip and trendy thing to do. Of course no one in his sane mind would imitate the things he sees in GTA. But the fact remains that GTA is a game based on murdering, stealing, and doing all the sort of things your mama tells you not to do. Medallion Man's argument is that these things have been done, and are still being done, in London with a high degree of professionalism. This disproves all theories that crime in London (or England) is limited to skipping tea-time.

If you find these things appaling then I seriously don't know what you are doing here. GTA is NOT a racing game, it is NOT a dressing-up game, it is NOT a dancing game. GTA is a crime simulation game , in the driving/shooting section. If you are so retarded as to do in real life what you do in your virtual one then please stay away from me. Or stick to Tetris. wink.gif

@HaydenJ: I wasn't referring to you directly (I didn't quote or make names), it was a general statement. No need to get so prickly man, relax. cool.gif




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